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    #26
    Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

    I was listening to Five Live and one English guy phoned in and asked why "the rest of the UK should subsidise Scotland by letting it remain in Sterling."

    They should rebroadcast that shit all over Scotland, because Scottish oil has been subsidising England for 30 years now.

    Comment


      #27
      Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

      Slightly Brown wrote: Surely the burden lies with the SNP. The union campaign is creating reasonable doubt. If I was starting a new country I'd have an answer to every worse-case scenario. "Negative, negative, negative" -damn right. But then I'd have an answer more substantial than "bluff, bluster and bullying". I'd hang my politics on something a bit more profound than alliteration, for fuq's sake.
      But it is bluff, bullying and bluster that the Unionist and Barroso is engaging in. If Barroso is correct and the EU throws Scotland out on 'independence day', what happens to the thousands of EU citizens living and working in Scotland? What about the Scots living and working in the EU, including England, Wales and Northern Ireland? I'm Scottish, live in the Netherlands and have a UK passport, do I leave on independence day? How does the EU and Scotland deal with the instant hundreds of thousands made unemployed by Scotland's ejection?

      It's utter guff Barroso is spouting predicated upon the fears of other EU states who are repelling regionalist sentiment, ie Spain, although Barroso denies this point. And anyway, I though the EU was committed to self determination of peoples and democracy. If I get Barroso's logic right, despite Scotland wanting to be a willing and active member of the EU and who has undertaken her democratic right to self determination, she will be ejected and will find it very difficult to rejoin? Nonsense on stilts- bluff, bullying and blunder.

      There will be a pragmatic solution in the event, so the 'year zero' argument emanating from Brussels is bullying of the very highest order.

      Osborne's another one. There's no way rUK will put the currency barrier up on independence day, it would be ruinous to the economies of England, Wales and NI, each country is a significant exporter with each other. Again, pragmatism will be the order of the day.

      There has never been a nation state created or one that gained independence without some protracted problems and issues. The demand that the SNP have every conceivable issue sorted and fixed for independence day is impossible. It's not some minor project management but the possible independence of a country with complex fiscal, economic, social and cultural interconnections with the rest of the developed world. Of course it is going to be a drawn out process in the event with unseen issues appearing.

      There's no black and white answers which the unionists and EU are demanding and whilst I agree that the SNP could do more to explain certain aspects, the accusation that they are clueless and leading the country into potential ruin is again bluff, bullying and bluster.

      Scotland won't vote for independence in September and both sides are jockeying for position after the vote. The no vote will not clear much up, there will still be the anomalous position of Scotland vis a vis the Union, the devolution settlement, the extra layer of Government inherent in devolution and Westminster representation. The drift will continue and it will only be a matter of time before the next vote arises.

      Comment


        #28
        Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

        Bryaniek wrote: I was listening to Five Live and one English guy phoned in and asked why "the rest of the UK should subsidise Scotland by letting it remain in Sterling."

        They should rebroadcast that shit all over Scotland, because Scottish oil has been subsidising England for 30 years now.
        Was the caller a "Gideon from Westminster"?

        Comment


          #29
          Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

          A demolition job on Barroso in the Guardian.

          I'm surprised that there is no legislation on whether the rump UK would de facto remain in the EU though - at least according to that article.

          Comment


            #30
            Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

            The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote: well, it kind of has to be a bit of a surprise. it's an insane hollow threat. the Irish and the english currency peg didn't cost england anything, facilitated trade and we'd just fought a particularly violent 3 year war of independence and humiliated the british empire to boot, giving it's first setback in 150 years. it even survived a 6 year economic war.
            Why do you keep conflating two different models?

            Printing your own money and pegging your currency to your major trading partner is clearly not the same as entering a currency union with them.

            Comment


              #31
              Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

              because they're as close as makes no difference. Scottish banks already print their own money, and in the irish situation, monetary policy, exchange rates and interest rates were all dictated by the bank of england.

              Comment


                #32
                Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

                If scotland has a different currency to the rest of the uk, they just have to set their currency a little lower, and they'll destroy retail within 100 miles of the border.
                Why would that bother the tories? If the last 4 years has taught us anything, it's the confirmation that the current UK government doesn't give a flying fuck about the vast majority of the people of this country. They don't even try and pretend to appeal to half of them anymore.

                This is the thing that I find so surprising about the approach of SNP. It's as if they hadn't anticipated that the 'no' campaign would bring up the currency issue. Their response to it has been totally lame. You'd think that they would have put forward a plan A of currency union, and a plan B of non-currency union. At the moment plan B seems to consist of 'they won't really exclude us from a currency union, because it's not in their interests'. They seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that this government just doesn't give a fuck. A government led by Somali pirates would be more responsible. A currency union may well be in the best interests of the rest of the UK, but so is increasing tax, saving the NHS, investing in the economy, closing tax loopholes, and beating Michael Gove to death with an array of gardening tools, and none of those things are gonna happen anytime soon either.

                Comment


                  #33
                  Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

                  The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote: because they're as close as makes no difference. Scottish banks already print their own money, and in the irish situation, monetary policy, exchange rates and interest rates were all dictated by the bank of england.
                  As a Dutch economist once said, being the head of the Dutch central bank was one of the most boring jobs in the world. All you had to do was call Germany and ask what the interest rate was.

                  Comment


                    #34
                    Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

                    The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote: … in the irish situation, monetary policy, exchange rates and interest rates were all dictated by the bank of england.
                    You're forgetting that for most of that period, the UK was either fighting World War II or on some sort of gold standard. It's not as if it was a free-floating currency as it is now.

                    As soon as Nixon pulled the plug on Bretton Woods in the early seventies, the price stability disappeared and the Irish pulled the plug on the arrangement.

                    Comment


                      #35
                      Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

                      It's utter guff Barroso is spouting predicated upon the fears of other EU states who are repelling regionalist sentiment, ie Spain, although Barroso denies this point. And anyway, I though the EU was committed to self determination of peoples and democracy. If I get Barroso's logic right, despite Scotland wanting to be a willing and active member of the EU and who has undertaken her democratic right to self determination, she will be ejected and will find it very difficult to rejoin? Nonsense on stilts- bluff, bullying and blunder
                      It's predicated on the Council of Ministers being in charge, and what they says basically goes. As Bryan pointed out, there were pretty serious points of principle involved with not bailing out banks, but a way was found to do that.

                      I don't know if Spain would follow through- it's not the most powerful member by any means. It's not like Germany re Turkey joining. But it could make things awkward.

                      Comment


                        #36
                        Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

                        Bryaniek wrote: I was listening to Five Live and one English guy phoned in and asked why "the rest of the UK should subsidise Scotland by letting it remain in Sterling."

                        They should rebroadcast that shit all over Scotland, because Scottish oil has been subsidising England for 30 years now.
                        Iain Duncan Smith did better than that, some time ago. He said Scotland (paying in more than it gets back as it does) wouldn't be able to afford its benefits bill.

                        Comment


                          #37
                          Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

                          Here is Barosso being an arsehole to a Kerryman. He doesn't even call Higgins by name.

                          Comment


                            #38
                            Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

                            E10 Rifle wrote: Salmond should stop trying to face both ways, and just say 'fuck the queen, fuck the pound, we'll try going it our own way', but then he's not the sort of politician to do that.
                            Bloody right, what is the point of being independent if you are still going to have Betty on the throne.

                            All I am going to do is phone anyone Scottish and remind them of this

                            "And like a torrent rush,
                            Rebellious Scots to crush.
                            God save the Queen!"

                            Comment


                              #39
                              Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

                              I suspect they'd be more interested in their own 300 year old out of date dig to their neighbours over the border.

                              "Those days are passed now
                              And in the past they must remain
                              But we can still rise now
                              And be the nation again
                              That stood against him
                              Proud Edward's army
                              And sent him homeward
                              Tae think again"

                              Of course as unpleasant as God Save the Queen is, at least someone had the good sense to quietly "lose" the stupid bits.

                              Comment


                                #40
                                Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

                                'Quietly lose' but not, I notice, get rid of it completely. The thing about Flower Of Scotland is that it is quite in keeping with the "Yes" campaign.

                                ...and it's a far better song, of course.

                                Comment


                                  #41
                                  Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

                                  Scotland will get their own entry into the Eurovision Song Contest though. That will alleviate much of the pain of secession.

                                  Comment


                                    #42
                                    Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

                                    Stumpy Pepys wrote: Scotland will get their own entry into the Eurovision Song Contest though. That will alleviate much of the pain of secession.
                                    Don't be so sure

                                    http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/scotland-joining-eurovision-would-be-very-difficult-for-everyone-2014021783678

                                    Comment


                                      #43
                                      Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

                                      As soon as Nixon pulled the plug on Bretton Woods in the early seventies, the price stability disappeared and the Irish pulled the plug on the arrangement.

                                      no, it was in 1979 when we entered the EMS together. We effectively had a common currency because english people had huge holdings in ireland and vice versa, and we've historically provided a huge proportion of your food. We also shared a common border.

                                      But as salmond pointed out last night, the reason that this wouldn't happen is that it would move scotlands share of the north sea oil outside of the sterling zone, and that would lead to sterling plummeting like a stone, on top of the enormous cost to uk business in various different ways.

                                      Comment


                                        #44
                                        Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

                                        But it's a song all about the English and not about Scotland.

                                        Comment


                                          #45
                                          Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

                                          The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote:
                                          But as salmond pointed out last night, the reason that this wouldn't happen is that it would move scotlands share of the north sea oil outside of the sterling zone, and that would lead to sterling plummeting like a stone, on top of the enormous cost to uk business in various different ways.
                                          If that went to a roUK referendum, I'd personally take the risk. As an English voter, I'd put up with a currency devaluation and increased transaction costs (significant but not enormous), if the alternative was a currency union with an independent Scotland. I'd expect most other voters would be of the same opinion.

                                          Comment


                                            #46
                                            Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

                                            But why would a currency union with an independent scotland pose a risk to the rest of the uk. they're much smaller than you and less likely to do anything strange, or insane.

                                            Comment


                                              #47
                                              Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

                                              The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote: But why would a currency union with an independent scotland pose a risk to the rest of the uk. they're much smaller than you and less likely to do anything strange, or insane.
                                              What about the SNP's "arc of prosperity" phase?

                                              Comment


                                                #48
                                                Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

                                                I just want Scotland to become independent so that the Unionists in NI will pledge allegiance the the country that used to rule the country they used to live in.

                                                Comment


                                                  #49
                                                  Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

                                                  Wanted to get to this earlier, but work keeps getting in the way (dammit!)

                                                  GdSC makes some excellent points earlier in the thread, particularly this:

                                                  I’m not a nationalist, I can’t vote in the independence referendum living abroad and I trust Alex Salmond as far as I could throw him.

                                                  All of which apply to me too. And I can see many, many benefits of continuing with the union.

                                                  But there's just no way in hell I can line up with the public face of the "no" campaign - they're such utter, utter cunts the lot of them.

                                                  From the timid self-hating Scots (Darling, Gove) to the over-privileged and patronising home counties Tory bastards (Cameron, Osborne) to those who should really know better (Miliband) to those who have fuck all to do with it and still want to stick their oar in (Barroso), it's been nothing but threats and insults.

                                                  And equally, there has been a fundamentally dishonest refusal by nearly everyone outside of Scotland - all of the above "no" campaigners, plus all of the major news outlets reporting on the issue - to ask the question:

                                                  "Why has it come to this? Why are the Scots voting on whether they want to leave one of the safest and most prosperous countries in the world?"

                                                  Hubris? Misplaced, over-romaticised nationalism? Or simply that for decades now the values espoused by one Westminster government after another are not what the Scots voted for, or hold to be important?

                                                  Comment


                                                    #50
                                                    Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

                                                    We keep hearing from the Yes campaign that the rest of the UK won't be "foreign" after independence, that there will be no border checks, that the Queen will stay, that the pound will stay, as will the lottery etc. etc.

                                                    It is more about ending Westminster's influence than anything else. The fact that they want to keep many of the British things that are already there is very telling.

                                                    The ironic thing for me is that the Tories will probably be the main beneficiaries at Westminster of a Yes vote, yet they are put across as the main opposition to it.

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