PRISM

[Anton Gramscescu]

PRISM

Amor de Cosmos wrote:
It isn't just about PRISM is it? That's merely part — though an important part — of a rapidly thickening wedge that's eroding personal rights and freedoms.

I don't know, tbh. People seem to be treating it as a PRISM thing. I agree that the larger issues are worrying; I'm just not sure I get the freak-out over the narrower ones.

[Nefertiti2]

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A closer look at those denials

[Anton Gramscescu]

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Pro-publica brief history of US electronic surveillance

David Simon, on why this is no big deal (short version: there's only so many Freamons, so they can't be listening in on too many conversations)

[Ginger Yellow]

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It's a valid question, but if the report that that FISA has approved every single one of the thousands of search requests made in the last two years is accurate, the system clearly isn't working the way it was intended.

Seems to me it's working exactly the way it was intended. Unfortunately for us.

[Nefertiti2]

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Anton Gramski wrote: Pro-publica brief history of US electronic surveillance

David Simon, on why this is no big deal (short version: there's only so many Freamons, so they can't be listening in on too many conversations)

I have considerable time for David Simon. Especially when talking about Crime in Baltimore- in the 1980's. But that article is written as if computer technology hasn't moved on at all since the 1980's. People don't need to listen to coversations anymore. Computers can do it all.

And it's also written as if the checkss and balances stillexisted when cases came to court. Bradley manning. for example, and those still in prison in Guantanamo after being held without trial for over ten years would disagree.

Simon himself says in the comments

This level of secrecy is unsustainable for a democracy.

[Nefertiti2]

PRISM

More background here inclduing and interview with William Binney NSA whsitleblower

[Nefertiti2]

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The Whistleblower self-discloses

[Stumpy Pepys]

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@Nefertiti2

Do you actually have a coherent argument here?

I mean I've only personally said that this is a complicated issue and that I don't believe the US government has a backdoor to the servers of the big internet companies.

Your narrative, on the other hand, just seems to copy and paste, or link to, all sorts of disparate issues.

I mean I think your basic point is that the criteria for seizing information from mobile phone companies and websites is very fuzzy; a point I would agree with. It's just the other stuff I can't fathom out.

[Nefertiti2]

PRISM

plus a Reuters article on the fall-out in Europe.

[Amor de Cosmos]

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Having watched the Obama administration prosecute whistleblowers at a historically unprecedented rate, he fully expects the US government to attempt to use all its weight to punish him.

Is this — the first part — true? And what are the numbers?

[Nefertiti2]

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Stumpy Pepys wrote: @Nefertiti2

Do you actually have a coherent argument here?

I mean I've only personally said that this is a complicated issue and that I don't believe the US government has a backdoor to the servers of the big internet companies.

Your narrative, on the other hand, just seems toU copy and paste, or link to, all sorts of disparate issues.

I mean I think your basic point is that the criteria for seizing information from mobile phone companies and websites is very fuzzy; a point I would agree with. It's just the other stuff I can't fathom out.

You say you don't consider it a big issue. I'm saying I think it is. I have linked to someone from the NSA explaining why he considered the program to be illegal from the very beginning. I've also linked to an article explaining how those nondenial denials from Google and others can be parsed to reveal the extent of the access allowed to data. I'm curious as to why you don't consider those relevant to the subject under discussion.

[caja-dglh]

PRISM

Maybe it is linking to twenty different articles without explaining what you see to be the pertinent point of each one? Just passing through the thread I see a lot of links (which I unfortunately don't have the time to read) and end up unclear on where the discussion actually is.

[Nefertiti2]

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Some of the links are posted by me- others were posted by other people, like Gramski, commenting on the story.

I also posted a couple of links to the breaking story that the NSA contractor, and whistleblower Edward Snowden who leaked to The Guardian has revealed himself and explained why he did it.

"I had the authority to wiretap anyone, even the President"

[anton pulisov]

PRISM

This whistle blower has balls of steel.

[Anton Gramscescu]

PRISM

It's an interesting portrait of him in the Graun.

You have to wonder about him a bit, though, when he says things like how he's gone to hide out in Hong Kong, because "they have a spirited commitment to free speech and the right of political dissent". Which is a bit odd given that, you know, it's part of the People's Republic of China.

[anton pulisov]

PRISM

Where else is he gonna go? Almost all western countries + Japan would extradite him back to the USA if asked. Less developed countries wouldn't be able to protect him.

[garcia]

PRISM

i'd guess that he's checked out the legal situation in hong kong before deciding to escape there. according to my wikipedia based knowledge of hong kong, it has independence in judicial affairs.

he seems remarkably calm in the circumstances.

david simon presents the sheer volume of data as an argument for why it cannot all be vetted by the security services. i agree with nefertiti that if this is still true, it won't be so for long. snowden seems to have acted because he believes the power being amassed certainly will be abused - a prospect simon also accepts. snowden might be paranoid, but you can't rule out the possibility that he knows more about what's going on in the security services than david simon does.

[Nefertiti2]

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Booz Allen employer of Edward Snowden is owned by the Carlyle group. Seems to be a revolving door between these organisations the NSA and office of national intelligence.

I won't provide a link as some people appear not to approve.

[Brandenburger Toro]

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Yes, that's exactly what caja and stumpy said.

[caja-dglh]

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Right - to try and be clearer, I came to read this thread because I wanted to get a feel for what opinion / learnings there were on the topic. Personally I know next to nothing, and my general inclination is that it is nothing, but I know that OTF is the kind of place where a bunch of people will know a lot better than I and will be getting through a good job of bashing around thoughts.

In such situations, one line posts of a link to an article don't really serve me well to get that. I mean, I am a great big externality on all this as my contribution is squat, I am just noting a preference for when I go digging through threads.

If I wanted to read a big article on it, I could read the Guardian micro-site on it and whatever has arrived on the New Yorker or whatever. Whenever people offer a 1 or 2 line taking from the article it makes life a lot easier for a casual bystander reader. That's all.

[caja-dglh]

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Booz Allen has long been a big National Security consultant where consultants get pretty high clearance. Not sure Carlyle has much to do with that bar it being something that made them seem a good investment.

[anton pulisov]

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By all means, keep posting the interesting links. OTF is like a filtered news-feed for me at times.

[sw2borshch]

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I wouldn't pretend to have followed this that closely, or to have any IT know-how bar the basics, but a lot of the focus seems to have been on the US/UK snooping on individuals or combating terror.

But isn't also concerning that a foreign power appears to be reserving the right to spy on the British/any Government and companies using these methods.

Nothing new in that as such, but it does seem have opened up plenty of new avenues for foreign agents to do that. Which surely has potential consequences for the UK's commercial and secutity interests that should be discussed?

[anton pulisov]

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I read somewhere today that Hong Kong has an extradition treaty with the US since 1996, fore Hong Kong reunified with China. Since Hong Kong has an independent judiciary, this treaty is still valid, and according to the BBC it is called upon multiple times a year. And it is in China's interest to stay friends with the US, surely. I'm sure they really couldn't give a shit about this guy.

Perhaps the Rooskies are this guy's best hope.

[garcia]

PRISM

americans don't care about government surveillance