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    #26
    Scottish Football 2013-14

    RobM wrote:
    Originally posted by AB2
    The increasingly hilarious Charles Green has announced that Rangers will leave Scottish football if the 12-12-18 proposal is implemented.
    While I find Green a scream sometimes AB2 I'd be inclined to join him here.

    I'm assuming that every job description which is sent out to applicants for posts in Scottish football has 'Must be a daft cunt' under the competencies.
    But where does Green envisage Rangers going? English football isn't going to let them in.

    Comment


      #27
      Scottish Football 2013-14

      16-16-16 is the only way it can go (and not next season either).

      These twats are trying to rush through a shit set up which will not only fuck up the Scottish leagues for years to come it will also fuck up this season halfway through. You have to almost admire the complete fucking idiocy of this.

      Comment


        #28
        Scottish Football 2013-14

        AB2 wrote:
        Originally posted by RobM
        Originally posted by AB2
        The increasingly hilarious Charles Green has announced that Rangers will leave Scottish football if the 12-12-18 proposal is implemented.
        While I find Green a scream sometimes AB2 I'd be inclined to join him here.

        I'm assuming that every job description which is sent out to applicants for posts in Scottish football has 'Must be a daft cunt' under the competencies.
        But where does Green envisage Rangers going? English football isn't going to let them in.
        It has the ominous ring of the breakaway about it. Start glad handing a few others until the position of the blazers becomes untenable. Cretins like Regan and Doncaster don't seem to have the wherewithall to organise a pish up in a brewery, respect for them has got to be minimal.

        Dead men walking I'd suggest as far as their positions go.

        Comment


          #29
          Scottish Football 2013-14

          If you actually read what Green says it isn't as hysterical or shrill as is being portrayed.

          His point about the lunacy of the proposed set up echoes pretty much everyone I know whatever club they support. Beyond that he's not saying anything Peter Lawell isn't. Not a particularly high benchmark though, I accept.

          Comment


            #30
            Scottish Football 2013-14

            Mr Beast wrote: Thanks AMMS. If the 16-10-16 proposal doesn't suggest all clubs just play each other home and away - and I can't see how it would given the 10 in the second tier - then it's fundamentally no better than yesterday's half arsed idea.

            Happy to be corrected by anyone who feels differently and has bothered to stay awake through the proposals and counter proposals. Failing that, Geoffrey's idea has as much merit as any.
            As I understand it the two leagues of 16 would play 30 games a season, the league of 10, 36 games. Not without its flaws either.

            Comment


              #31
              Scottish Football 2013-14

              Sorry AMMS. Was just talking bollocks, and trying to be clever. Please take it with a massive pinch of salt, and many apologies. I can be a right arse at times. (As I am sure you are all aware.)

              And, absolutely nothing against you at all. You are a much more sensible Rangers fan, than I am Celtic. (And/or Queen's Park/Sparta Rotterdam/The Arse/Malaga/New York Yankees)

              Comment


                #32
                Scottish Football 2013-14

                ursus arctos wrote: Would a different combination of numbers be more to his liking?

                Perhaps 12-7-16(90)?
                Oh, nice one ursus. Sneaky, but nice.

                Is Charles Green? That is all.

                Comment


                  #33
                  Scottish Football 2013-14

                  Hi Rob, cheers.

                  On a more serious note regarding the restructure.

                  Neil Doncaster says “What the model ensures is vibrancy and excitement at all stages of the season for clubs at all levels”.

                  No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is the worst thing that could happen. What this will actually do is to accelerate the declining standard of the Scottish professional footballer and further denude the game of spectacle and skill.

                  They don’t get it do they? They just don’t get it. One of the significant causes in the decline of the domestic game was the split from the old first and second divisions into the Premier Division, Div 1 and Div 2 with a 12-12-14 structure in the mid 1970’s. This was exacerbated in 1993-94 with the introduction of Div 3 and a further lessening of the clubs per division.

                  I firmly believe the game was slowly strangled from this point. It created a noose around clubs necks in which every game mattered in terms of promotion or relegation. Outside of two clubs mid table, the rest were involved either in promotion/relegation battles.

                  As a result, competitiveness, will, strength and commitment were drummed into young players at the expense of technical skills, ball development and enjoyment of the game, which is a much-underestimated part of the footballers psyche. The more a player enjoys his football, the more he will develop. Players can’t develop when every game is a stressful must win.

                  This new harebrained scheme is the same in all but name. Every game matters, be it to avoid the bottom split league with 22 games in and then subsequently to avoid relegation from that league even if you ended nowhere near the relegation places at the split. The blood and thunder, sorry “excitement and vibrancy” of the new set up will continue to diminish the game and as a result work against all that Doncaster and Regan claim to want- “a viable, attractive product”.

                  The likes of Doncaster and Reagan have no idea that fans have more attention spans than goldfish and that we are not ‘excitement, vibrancy’ junkies. Your average fan takes much more out of a game other than “shit, we’re going down/going up”. An appreciation of a cracking individual performance, a budding young player/players, a single incident, a honking player etc- these are all the things we take from a game other than the league table or how much value for money we received in terms of ‘vibrancy’.

                  The more the game is packaged as a commodity based upon excitement, the more they try to make the game attractive by making every game matter the more they degrade Scottish football and accelerate its death spiral. Taking it back to the origins of our game, there’s much to be said for Queens Park’s simple latin motto Ludere Causa Ludende- 'To play for the sake of playing'.

                  By following this approach, by amending the league structures upwards in terms of club numbers so there are more meaningless games in which to blood and develop young players, by releasing the pressure on clubs by not forcing them to play every week in ‘win or bust’ matches and by moving towards an environment in which players can be nurtured in terms of technical development, ball skills and footballing intelligence, the better the game will be. And of course a reduction in the price of briefs will also increase attraction.

                  Blood, thunder, snotters, sweaty jockstraps and ralgex has its place in the Scottish game (as it always has) but we also used to be good. Very, very good for our size. It is now time to reach forward by going back- larger leagues and cheaper gates, 'to play for the sake of playing' instead “excitement and vibrancy”.

                  It would be a small start, but a significant one and stands not a cat in hells chance of ever being adopted.

                  Comment


                    #34
                    Scottish Football 2013-14

                    Has C.Green been at cousin Berbaslug's drugs again? Does he imagine Rangers will be some sort of Globetrotters carnival? Or alternatively will they come in at a later stage of the all-Ireland Setanta Cup, after Crusaders have knocked out all the Free State no-hopers?

                    Comment


                      #35
                      Scottish Football 2013-14

                      ??

                      Comment


                        #36
                        Scottish Football 2013-14

                        This post is excellent, thanks Geoff.

                        Comment


                          #37
                          Scottish Football 2013-14

                          Hello.

                          Geoff, I'd like to know if you'd prefer Scottish football abandoned competition altogether, so that players can relax and caress the ball about a bit more. Isn't that what happens in youth football? Do you think fans would continue to come and watch that? Do you think competitiveness has affected other leagues negatively?

                          Clearly, there has to be a balance.

                          I'm going to stick my neck out and NOT be a stereotypical whingeing Scottish football fan. Seriously, if there's one thing we (as a group) are good at, it's moaning-to-fuck about everything,.

                          As a Rangers fan I'm a bit pissed off (oh, having said that) that this plan means there's no point to this season at all, really. Hey, maybe our young players will get even better cos it's all meaningless? In which case, why do young players get sent out on loan, as a preference to playing reserve football?

                          As a Scottish football fan, I think it's worth a go. Fuck, anything's worth a go. If there's a second thing we, Scottish football fans, are really good at, it's spuriously over-complicating quite simple systems and spluttering to anyone who'll listen about how incomprehensible they are. Even smart, educated people don't seem to be able to do primary school maths when it comes to football fixtures. "The Split", for example, is explicable to anyone with a double-figure IQ in less than a minute. How would we cope if we had a South American-style league? I think heads would explode at the suggestion of having two short seasons in one year and then a play-off for an "overall" winner. But why shouldn't we consider some other options?

                          Here's one very good feature of the 12-12-18 suggestion: it's much more fluid than any league system we've ever had wrt promotion and relegation. FOUR teams can be promoted/relegated to/from the top league per season. So the cream really will rise to the top, and there'll be much more scope for a fair distribution of income down the leagues, because more clubs will have access to the top league.

                          Picture it: a club like Thistle, who've been miles away from the SPL for ages now, could go on a good run and finish top 4 in D1 come Christmas; points returned to zero, confidence renewed, they then battle it out with four new team - Ross County, Dundee, St. Mirren, Killie? - and a few good results could see them promoted. HALF of that league will be promoted.

                          I think that's exciting. It gives season-long incentives to loads of teams. I know you Geoff see that as a bad thing. I think fans prefer big games to dead rubbers, no matter the product on the pitch.

                          And I really don't see how "competitiveness" and "will" can be trained into young players as separate and disagreeable traits to "technical skills" and "ball development". Simply, we've been outpaced. It's FOOTBALL that's changed since the 70s, and the structure of the league system in our wee country is not to blame for all that.

                          Comment


                            #38
                            Scottish Football 2013-14

                            Oh come on Broon, do you really think my above post argues that we immediately dispense with competition altogether and play as amateurs wearing knickerbockers and caps upon Elysian Fields?

                            Of course not, I’m simply arguing that bigger leagues equals more meaningless games and yes I would argue that is a good thing for players development. Clearly as you say you want excitement over dead rubbers (and perhaps you are the type of fan that Doncaster and Regan are appealing to) but for the long-term health of the game, dead rubbers can help players, bigger league structures can play a small part (as I said in my previous post) in nursing the game back to health.

                            Bigger leagues are not the magic bullet but part of the cure. The game has to move from a culture in which every game means something to one that values player development. In the current structure and the soon to be introduced structure, this can’t happen.

                            I'm going to stick my neck out and NOT be a stereotypical whingeing Scottish football fan. Seriously, if there's one thing we (as a group) are good at, it's moaning-to-fuck about everything.
                            Well if you’ll excuse me moaning to fuck here… I’m fucking sick to death of our dismal failure in international competitions, I’m fucking sick to death that our national game is seen as a joke both at home and abroad, and I’m fucking sick to death that we have numbskulls in charge who think building a league structure and dicking about with it like its RollerCoaster Tycoon Expansion Pack on their PC will solve our problems.

                            With no chance of qualifying for WC 2014, we are now going through our longest spell in the international wilderness since the SFA joined FIFA in 1946, is that not something to be angry with? The fact we don’t currently produce and have not produced world-class players for a generation? If that doesn’t make you angry as a domestic fan, then nothing will.

                            And I really don't see how "competitiveness" and "will" can be trained into young players as separate and disagreeable traits to "technical skills" and "ball development".
                            Competitiveness and a will to win are important attributes but there is far too much emphasis on these factors at the expense of technical development and an enjoyment of the game. With everything to play for EVERY SINGLE WEEK, FOREVER! of course competitiveness and will to win will triumph over technical development. And we will continue to get horsed on the international stage. As for loaning players out to blood the,, well of course those players will be loaned to clubs in the same pressure cooker league environment in lower divisions.

                            Before every International fixture, the opposing coach is always asked about playing Scotland and every single one always says “We fear Scotland’s competitiveness, their will to win.” Fuck that, I’m sick to death of hearing that; I want to hear opposing coaches worry about our skill, our technical abilities, not our bravehearts. This new league set up will only exacerbate this culture and mindset.

                            Simply, we've been outpaced. It's FOOTBALL that's changed since the 70s, and the structure of the league system in our wee country is not to blame for all that.
                            Yes it is as I argued in my last post; the league structure is one of the culpable elements in the deterioration of the game, not the only one. And your argument in favour of the new league set up will only see that continue.

                            Picture it: a club like Thistle, who've been miles away from the SPL for ages now, could go on a good run and finish top 4 in D1 come Christmas; points returned to zero, confidence renewed, they then battle it out with four new team - Ross County, Dundee, St. Mirren, Killie? - and a few good results could see them promoted. HALF of that league will be promoted.

                            I think that's exciting.
                            And I think it’s absolutely ludicrous beyond any reasonable footballing measure. Switzerland and Austria tried it and then reverted back.

                            To sum up, I suspect we are coming at cross-purposes here. You are a fan of a club in the league and are looking for excitement based upon the incentives of the new set up. I as a junior’s fan am worried about the state of domestic player development and think the current and future league set up is exceptionally detrimental to it in this respect.

                            As a result we will continue not only to fail at an international level but also deny ourselves the enjoyment of seeing home reared players play in the biggest leagues. But hey, if this means the culture of blood, thunder and excitement continues then by all means enjoy it.

                            Comment


                              #39
                              Scottish Football 2013-14

                              I echo Geoffrey’s sentiments exactly. Time was league games were your bread and butter, whilst cup-ties were all about the blood and thunder. Since the creation of the play-offs, the whole sudden-death nature has crept into the league. I confessed to enjoying Dumbarton’s dismantling of Airdrie in last season’s (sorry last last season’s) thread, but now the powers that be seemingly want that whole do-or-die feeling every week.

                              As far as TV is concerned, it is all about the entertainment. Fixtures become clashes where a Don King mentality looks to make maximum mileage of forthcoming games where there was a bit of controversy last time round which means that you are more likely to hear the phrase ‘pizza-gate’ where Arsenal and Man U are concerned. This in turn trumps history as ITV were foaming at the gash to cover Wimbledon versus Franchise in the FA Cup yet did not consider Coventry’s recent cup-tie against Spurs.

                              Overkill sums this up. It would be nice if television tired of football and chose to look elsewhere for entertainment. Sadly, it’s in the throes of spivs disguised as accountants; a Doncaster-less scenario would appeal across the board, but alas there’d be another one waiting in the wings.

                              Comment


                                #40
                                Scottish Football 2013-14

                                Charles Green is now saying that the Belgian/Dutch women's league provides a precedent for a cross-border league, and that he is considering suing UEFA using European Union sexual equality laws.

                                I am more and more convinced that this bloke is on one very big, very long WUM. Either that or he's panicking because he doesn't have the cashflow to keep Rangers going for a few more years.

                                Comment


                                  #41
                                  Scottish Football 2013-14

                                  Excellent stuff by Geoffrey de Ste Croix incidentally. You have been missed recently.

                                  Comment


                                    #42
                                    Scottish Football 2013-14

                                    Green also said Welsh sides shouldn't be allowed to play in the English leagues if Rangers can't.

                                    Green and Rangers can fuck the fuck off. Or apply to the Northern League and see what happens like Rhyl were considering.

                                    Comment


                                      #43
                                      Scottish Football 2013-14

                                      Seeing as I was just picking through old Swiss league tables for another thread, I thought I would bring up the following.

                                      As we know, the Swiss experimented with a 12-12 splitting to 8-8-8 model for their top two leagues, and have subsequently discarded it. On discarding, they initially moved to a 12 team top league, with a 16 team second league*, and by stages have gradually worked their way to this seasons system, a top league of 10 clubs and a 2nd league of 10 clubs. All play the others in their division 4 times across a season.
                                      Hmm, that sounds familiar.

                                      Both seem to be wrestling with the same essential, intractable, problem. Due to the population of the country, the gaps in competitive standard between sides are too large.

                                      * - The Swiss 'Challenge League' as they know their second Division had, in it's initial season, the bizarre idea of teams playing each other home-and-away on consecutive weeks, and the 'winners' according to the usual UEFA formula over the two games gaining a bonus point. Odd enough anyway, but then, late in the day (i.e. October!), a Swiss court forced the Swiss FA to admit Sion to this league, leaving it with 17 teams. The play the same side two straight weeks had already been pretty undermined by weather related postponements, but getting a 17th team and having to re-jig the fixture list to squeeze their 32 fixtures into just six months, left it truly fucked up. We had threads on it at the time.

                                      Comment


                                        #44
                                        Scottish Football 2013-14

                                        AB2 wrote: Charles Green is now saying that the Belgian/Dutch women's league provides a precedent for a cross-border league, and that he is considering suing UEFA using European Union sexual equality laws.
                                        He does seem to be missing the essential point that the English FA wouldn't be interested in his club joining, even if UEFA allowed it.

                                        By-the-by, this Belgian-Dutch Women's League appears to run on the following system.
                                        Two initial groups of 8 (one Dutch, one Belgian, obviously), splitting and reforming halfway into a Championship group of 8 and a relegation group of 8.
                                        There are two CL places in the Championship group. These don't neccesarily go to the top two teams, though. They go to the highest placed Dutch and highest placed Belgian teams, regardless of overall finishing position.
                                        Also, despite the relegation group containing, of neccesity, four Dutch teams, none of them can be relegated. The lowest Belgian team goes down, however many Dutch sides might finish below them.

                                        Makes the current Scottish league proposal seem practical and easy to understand, doesn't it?

                                        Comment


                                          #45
                                          Scottish Football 2013-14

                                          Dink wrote: From Rangers point of view (assuming they win SFL3) the reconstruction is going to be especially shit, essentially playing for nothing this year. But if they go ahead with this I'm not sure there is a fair solution to what happens with the team which wins SFL3. If they were to be placed in the second tier they will have leapfrogged several teams in SFL2 without having proved themselves worthy to do so. If they are placed in the third tier then they are essentially receiving no benefit from winning SFL3. I guess the argument could be made that they are moving up from tier 4 to tier 3, it's just that every other SFL3 team will be doing the same.
                                          However you cut four tiers to three is going to cause this issue somewhere, unless you incorporate a mechanism that allows a club to move by two tiers, be that old 3 to new 1, or whatever, which has other issues to it. It feels similar to the Koeningsberg Bridge Problem.

                                          Dink wrote: Also any attempt to introduce reconstruction mid-season is wrong. Teams should know exactly what they are playing for at the start of the season and not have the goalposts shifted half way through the season. We are currently second in SFL 2, which should be a play-off spot, but is it now an automatic promotion place? That we've played over half the season and still don't know what we're playing for is an utter joke.
                                          I general I agree, but with the other problem mentioned above, I think that in some ways it makes more sense to do the restructure suddenly and with no notice, during a closed season. That will mean teams haven't gained what they thought they had gained because what they were getting promoted to has ceased to exist, but will also mean that no season goes by when there is nothing to play for, or at least people will only discover retrospectively that this was the case.

                                          Comment


                                            #46
                                            Scottish Football 2013-14

                                            I'd like to see it go back to two divisions.

                                            There may have been some really meaningless end of season dross back then,but it can't have been much worse than some of the dross about now.

                                            Comment


                                              #47
                                              Scottish Football 2013-14

                                              Bizarre Löw Triangle wrote: Green also said Welsh sides shouldn't be allowed to play in the English leagues if Rangers can't.
                                              That's not really what he said though. He made the point why can Welsh clubs play in England but not Scottish ones. It's not a new point and it's been answered before but it's still a valid question.

                                              Bizarre Löw Triangle wrote: Green and Rangers can fuck the fuck off. Or apply to the Northern League and see what happens like Rhyl were considering.
                                              That's pretty much what he did say. Why the hostility?

                                              Comment


                                                #48
                                                Scottish Football 2013-14

                                                Janik wrote: Both seem to be wrestling with the same essential, intractable, problem. Due to the population of the country, the gaps in competitive standard between sides are too large.
                                                This is a fallacy, we've two big clubs, 4 or so clubs below them with similar resources and potential fanbase and then 10 or so clubs below them again who have very similar resources and fanbases. We could have a 16 team league without any problem, it would be considerably more competitive than the current one that's for sure.

                                                The disparity in resources between clubs in Scotland is very similar to many European leagues, some of them in countries with much larger populations.

                                                Comment


                                                  #49
                                                  Scottish Football 2013-14

                                                  AMMS wrote:
                                                  That's not really what he said though. He made the point why can Welsh clubs play in England but not Scottish ones. It's not a new point and it's been answered before but it's still a valid question.
                                                  It's exactly what he said.

                                                  "People say you are not allowed in the English league - well let's then kick Cardiff and Swansea out, because they are playing in a different country"

                                                  He's playing politics with the status of my football club. He can fuck off.

                                                  I'm sure you can understand the hostility if you think hard enough.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #50
                                                    Scottish Football 2013-14

                                                    Bizarre Löw Triangle wrote:
                                                    Originally posted by AMMS
                                                    That's not really what he said though. He made the point why can Welsh clubs play in England but not Scottish ones. It's not a new point and it's been answered before but it's still a valid question.
                                                    It's exactly what he said.

                                                    "People say you are not allowed in the English league - well let's then kick Cardiff and Swansea out, because they are playing in a different country"

                                                    He's playing politics with the status of my football club. He can fuck off.

                                                    I'm sure you can understand the hostility if you think hard enough.
                                                    Right, you really think his goal in this is to get Welsh clubs thrown out of English leagues? The only people he's playing politics with are the SPL and Sky and I don't need to think very hard to know that.

                                                    Comment

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