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Visca Catalunya?

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    Where on any part of this thread am I condoning physical assault of innocent people?
    Fair enough. You're merely denying that it happened, or that it caused anyone any harm.

    I'm over the moon the the only consequences of this horrible situation are politicians being arrested rather than innocent people being harmed.

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      So would this be considered a Thread Ebro then?

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        Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
        Fair enough. You're merely denying that it happened, or that it caused anyone any harm.
        So, you'd rather Puigdemont and his cronies had stayed in Barcelona and resisted arrest through force sparking possible conflict? I stand by it, I'm glad they were arrested, I'm glad innocent people weren't harmed.

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          Originally posted by steveeeeeeeee View Post
          So, you'd rather Puigdemont and his cronies had stayed in Barcelona and resisted arrest through force sparking possible conflict? I stand by it, I'm glad they were arrested, I'm glad innocent people weren't harmed.
          Where did you get the idea they would have resisted arrest by force? Would agree this Belgian escapade is daft, but presumably there was a Cabinet agreement last weekend to take the campaign to the EU, rather than Puigdemont literally doing a solo run.

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            Originally posted by Diable Rouge View Post
            Where did you get the idea they would have resisted arrest by force? Would agree this Belgian escapade is daft, but presumably there was a Cabinet agreement last weekend to take the campaign to the EU, rather than Puigdemont literally doing a solo run.
            Up until Sunday, they were all saying they would turn up to work as usual come Monday:
            https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...er-direct-rule

            They also hoped Catalans would form human shields to protect them, they were playing with possible conflict. But by Sunday evening more people were on the streets asking for unity than they were independence and I estimate the Catalan leaders started to get serious cold feet. Like most southern European regionalist pot stirrers, they cried wolf. Thankfully, by the time Monday came I think most Catalans realised that Puigdemont had led then up the garden path, because surely in any other scenario, Madrid taking direct rule of Catalonia would produce some serious discontent? Why didn't it happen this week?

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              I think the main problem with your argument that Catalan secessionists should wait for democracy to take its course is that there is no democratic route to independence through the Spanish constitution and the fact that the major Spanish parties are all implacably opposed. They can't "wait for Rajoy to be voted out" because that won't leave them any closer. In the circumstances non violent protest and resistance is the only real way to effect change. If Martin Luther King had waited for one of the two parties in the US to support civil rights, he'd still be waiting now.

              (This, obviously, is not to equate the rights and wrongs of the civil rights movement and Catalan independence, merely to try and explain how when "legal" and "democratic" means give you no way forward, choices are limited. Puigdemont comes across badly (though that Toibin piece sheds an interesting light on things), but the central point here is that only one side has used the instruments of violent repression in "support" of its position

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                Originally posted by steveeeeeeeee View Post
                Up until Sunday, they were all saying they would turn up to work as usual come Monday:
                https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...er-direct-rule

                They also hoped Catalans would form human shields to protect them, they were playing with possible conflict. But by Sunday evening more people were on the streets asking for unity than they were independence and I estimate the Catalan leaders started to get serious cold feet. Like most southern European regionalist pot stirrers, they cried wolf. Thankfully, by the time Monday came I think most Catalans realised that Puigdemont had led then up the garden path, because surely in any other scenario, Madrid taking direct rule of Catalonia would produce some serious discontent? Why didn't it happen this week?
                We'll find out this week - strike planned for Wednesday, and a demonstration for Saturday.

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                  The thing i cant understand on this thread is why do people support regionalism, especially in Europe where regional minority ethnic or religious groups are not persecuted? Why would you encourage more borders, more division, more space for xenophobia to develop? I cannot think of a positive outcome from regionalism In Southern Europe. It's almost 99% based on greed and corruption.

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                    What is this "Loss of human life" that you keep blaming Puigdemont for? The only circumstances in which I can envisage loss of human life will be a Spanish troops fire on Catalan demonstrators. Are you seriously blaming Puigdemont now should that happen in the future?

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                      Can Snake Plissken insert some kind of loop in here so at this point the thread returns to page 5* since we appear to have entered such a loop anyway and it will make it easier on everyone just to have it automated.

                      (*may not actually be page 5, but wherever it was)

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                        I've explained this before, but...

                        If you are willing to declare independence, would you not fight for that independence were it not recognised? It seems to be an essential card to play in similar situations.

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                          Well, I’m from a small statelet that was abominably run in modern times until Holyrood was set up. Good Christ it’s far from perfect but it’s light years from almost zero time for debate in Westminster on Scottish issues and legislation, Ministerial orders and Scottish civil servants deciding things without public oversight.

                          Generally I believe power should be devolved as fully from the center as possible. The failure to do so (70% of English council revenues were raised from local taxation till the 80s- now they are dependant on handouts from the controlling centre) is partly what makes Britain (and Ireland) so fucked in so many ways. And that in general, smaller countries in the developed world are better run, more accountable places than larger states. And most of all, that if enough people in a “region” feel the need to move toward self-determination, they should be allowed to exercise that right, preferably through a negotiated process following a referendum agreed by all parties. But that path will never be open to the Basques or the Catalans.
                          Last edited by Lang Spoon; 05-11-2017, 16:38.

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                            Regional decision making is great. Regional holding onto wealth not so great. Ideally, wealth should be shared on a wider scale.

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                              another piece from Open Democracy.

                              It acknowledges that
                              ... in today's Europe, considering the existing level of interdependence, with the interweaving economic, cultural and social interests, it is very difficult to keep on talking about independence and completely autonomous nation-states.
                              In a country as corrupt as Spain the appointment of judges and deciding who gets to hear which cases is very politicised. Puigdemont says he wasn't running away from justice but towards it. Spain has been ranked at number 58 in the world for judicial independence- the lowest in the EU.

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                                Originally posted by steveeeeeeeee View Post
                                Regional decision making is great. Regional holding onto wealth not so great. Ideally, wealth should be shared on a wider scale.
                                Well that could be part of any discussion about the relationship between Catalonia and the rest of Spain. But the Spanish government won't have that discussion.

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                                  I'm glad innocent people weren't harmed.
                                  So, just to clarify, the several hundred people reported to have been injured, are not innocent in your view?

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                                    Offs. I'm using past tense verb to be to talk about a hypothetical future where innocent people could have been dragged into and still could be dragged into a bloody conflict. Of course I despise police brutality.

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                                      Teachers in Catalonia to appear in court for discussing referendum in class

                                      #BLamePuigdemont

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                                        Puigdemont is a kitten compared with Junqueras, Steveee, so be careful what you wish for:

                                        http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica...catalunya.html

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                                          Even Guy Verhofstadt is softening his rhetoric!

                                          https://m.facebook.com/GuyVerhofstad...680016/?type=3

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                                            Originally posted by steveeeeeeeee View Post
                                            Regional decision making is great. Regional holding onto wealth not so great. Ideally, wealth should be shared on a wider scale.
                                            So being from the poorest country in "western" Europe despite being part of some supposed fantastic union is it OK for me to be pro-independence? Is this how it works? Poor ok, rich not ok?

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                                              Originally posted by Jorge Porbillas View Post
                                              So being from the poorest country in "western" Europe despite being part of some supposed fantastic union is it OK for me to be pro-independence? Is this how it works? Poor ok, rich not ok?
                                              Of course that's fine. You campaign for independence and get a legal referendum from the union , which you could possibly win.

                                              But to just go gung ho, creating your own referendum and using that to declare independence isn't a good idea.

                                              Is Wales really poorer than Portugal?

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                                                As poor with some parts poorer.

                                                So you're earlier blanket hatred of secession has changed?

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                                                  Originally posted by steveeeeeeeee View Post
                                                  Of course that's fine. You campaign for independence and get a legal referendum from the union , which you could possibly win.

                                                  But to just go gung ho, creating your own referendum and using that to declare independence isn't a good idea.

                                                  Is Wales really poorer than Portugal?
                                                  What's the legal position in Portugal, out of curiosity? Madeira and Azores don't appear to have any ethnic/linguistic differences to the mainland, but could they secede, should they ever seek to do so?

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                                                    Originally posted by steveeeeeeeee View Post
                                                    Of course that's fine. You campaign for independence and get a legal referendum from the union , which you could possibly win.
                                                    Sure, but the Franco lads in Madrid are never going to give them an official referendum. Which is dumb, because if they had given them an official referendum, everybody would show up to vote, No would win, and that would be the end of it.

                                                    But to just go gung ho, creating your own referendum and using that to declare independence isn't a good idea.
                                                    Well, they have these self-organised referendums all the time, they are a symbolic thing and the No voters don't show up. The next day, everybody moves on, things return for normal and talk of independence declarations recede. This time, for some insane reason, Madrid decided to send in riot police to beat up old ladies trying to vote. I have no idea why they did that. I guess it makes for good telly in unionist strongholds.
                                                    Last edited by anton pulisov; 05-11-2017, 22:36.

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