Will smaller players come back into fashion

[Guest]

For a while now , particulalrly in England we sem in the main to have been obsessed with 6ft plus players throughout our stronger sides.

Now that Spain have proved that tournaments can be won with smaller skilfull players does anyone think that things might change ?

[Etienne]

Will smaller players come back into fashion

Given that Germany reached the final basically through being taller, stronger and more powerful than their opponents, I'd guess not.

Though Deco (eptiome of the small skillful player) signing for Chelsea (epitome of the team of giants team) is a good sign.

[Jon]

Will smaller players come back into fashion

Senna is only 5 foot eight, which I find pretty incredible.

[Guest]

Will smaller players come back into fashion

There's no way Senna is 5'8".

I'm 5'8" myself, and have been since the age of about 17. I know what 5'8" footballers look like. Senna is not 5'8". He's 5'10" at least.

[Brandenburger Toro]

Will smaller players come back into fashion

Depends on the league. Doesn't matter what Spain do internationally, a guy like Iniesta would get stomped on in the PL. Or at least, he'd spend at least a season learning not to, which is probably not worth his while. As a small guy, slight when I'm in training, I'd love to see Spain as the model for the future. They've got to be a massive inspiration to any kid who was ever told he wasn't big or strong enough to play his chosen sport. But let's not kid ourselves that the average height, weight, or bench-pressing ability of top-level footballers is about to drop off, sadly.

[jason voorhees]

Will smaller players come back into fashion

If anything, Spain won because they had a tall player who could bang and slang and bully and bump his way to scoring. As dalliance said in the Final thread, it was something always beneath them, but seeing Torres go shoulder-to-shoulder and being of a comparable height led to that goal.

[Jon]

Will smaller players come back into fashion

There's no way Senna is 5'8".


From yesterday's Observer: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2...euro2008.spain

"Senna, in the words of another observer, 'dominates the pitch'. Not particularly tall at 5ft 8in, or muscular, he denies opponents space, recovers possession, then slides into Spain's carousel passing, hitting his target more than any team-mate."

[Jon]

Will smaller players come back into fashion

Of course it could be a typo though. My initial thought was the same as yours, H of H.

[Guest]

Will smaller players come back into fashion

Just googled it and the first page returns a series of results variously listing his height at 5'10", 5'9", and 177cm.

That guy is simply not 5'8". I could believe it of someone like Villa or Xavi or Iniesta, but not him.

Duncan Castles is not necessarily to be trusted, by the way. I'm starting to think he is John Carlin under a pseudonym.

[Jorge Porbillas]

Will smaller players come back into fashion

Small players rule!

[dalliance]

Will smaller players come back into fashion

I think Senna could pass for 5ft 8".

Both him and Deco are mentioned on this thread but both are pretty strong despite their lack of inches. We should make a distinction here though, both are strong on the ball primarily because both have very good technique and have learnt the basics of how to shield the ball effectively in any situation.

Strength plays a part in shielding the ball of course, but it's balance and positioning that are the key elements. You look at a player like Emile Heskey and it's easy to get the ball off him despite his ideal physique. His touch is not strong enough to properly guard the ball while keeping his body in the right positions, meaning he's off balance a lot of the time. When he's off balance then his power is compromised and he can be brushed aside by smaller, better balanced players.

[Tactical Genius]

Will smaller players come back into fashion

I too think Senna is short.
He just looks big when standing next to the rest of Spain midfield.

Dalliance is right with his second paragraph there, however Heskey is not such a good example. Heskey is a bit of a diver going back to his leicester days (it was the teams tactic at the time). Heskey dives to win free kicks or goes down when he loses control of the ball.
When Heskey wishes to stay on his feet, defenders can't shrug him off the ball. Same thing with Drogba.

[Etienne]

Will smaller players come back into fashion

An interesting thing about Heskey is that he played in the same school team as a mate of mine (despite being 2 or 3 years younger) and at the time he wan't particularly big, but was very fast. So in his developmental stages, Heskey wasn't used to having a size advantage against his markers (who'd tend to be older than him) which may be why he's never managed to use his physique as well as Drogba or Shearer.

[Ek weet nie]

Will smaller players come back into fashion

Upper body strength is vitally important for smaller players. When Ljungberg was at his peak he was impossible to shake off the ball.

[Mr Beast]

Will smaller players come back into fashion

On the height issue it would also be nice to see the return of skilful players at the expense of purely pacy ones.

I'm all for a bit of pace allied to skill. I'm bored of pace for it's own sake and watching the likes of Aaron Lennon running into the advertising hoardings like the well wrapped up dwarf Gansta he is.

[Tactical Genius]

Will smaller players come back into fashion

"Depends on the league. Doesn't matter what Spain do internationally, a guy like Iniesta would get stomped on in the PL. Or at least, he'd spend at least a season learning not to, which is probably not worth his while."

Good point there, I think the advantage Fabregas now has over Iniesta and Xavi is that having played in the EPL, he is better able to cope with the more physical aspects of the game and is less likely to be kicked out of a game or allow himself to be physically intimidated.
Iniesta is young enough to adjust but i doubt Xavi could (the same goes for Pirlo).

[Tactical Genius]

Will smaller players come back into fashion

"So in his developmental stages, Heskey wasn't used to having a size advantage against his markers (who'd tend to be older than him) which may be why he's never managed to use his physique as well as Drogba or Shearer"

I would have thought it would be the opposite.
Growing up small will force you to either develop guille and movement to avoid challenges (Fabregas) or to to develop good balance and ability to shield the ball from bigger opponents (Shearer, Deco).
People who have always been big tend to suffer the most when they start palying adult football as that aspect of their game was something they didn't need to work on.

Ditto quick players who come across a defender who can match them for pace. (A.Lennon V Clichy this season or Ronaldo V A. Cole)

[Mr Beast]

Will smaller players come back into fashion

A. Lennon versus anyone

[Tactical Genius]

Will smaller players come back into fashion

I have always considered Lennon as Salad. We should have sold him after the world cup when we had the chance.

a professional footballer who cannot shoot further than 15 yards or kick the ball straight.

[dalliance]

Will smaller players come back into fashion

Iniesta is pretty much Fabregas without the Premiership conditioning. How a player like that might adapt is a mental issue for him, it's hard for us to second guess that. I personally wouldn't be so sure he could though.

I actually think that Pirlo would be a better bet despite him not liking the physical side either. It's mainly down to the positions they play, Iniesta is a creative attacking player who will have to take on defenders at times - and could get muscled out.

That's not Pirlo's game though. He's adept at finding space, giving options to teammates and then moving on the ball accurately over short and long distances. By the time a beefier player gets on top of him the ball has been moved on anyway plus, the position he plays means he only really has attack minded players in the same zone. His whole game is space rather than conflict orientated.

I recall a couple of years ago Fulham gave Mourinho's Chelsea a really tough game by sitting Malbranque right on top of Makelele. Everything went through him and it disrupted Chelsea's build up. It's not common though and Pirlo moves the ball better than Makelele.

[dalliance]

Will smaller players come back into fashion

SWP is salad too it must be said. He hasn't stepped up his game since moving up in standard.

[Nico Rijnders]

Will smaller players come back into fashion

People would surely wise to that fairly quickly, in the event that Pirlo played in the PL.

[dalliance]

Will smaller players come back into fashion

It's hard to see how they would though. It's in part about being quicker of thought than him and there's not many players who are.

Then it's the tactical side, a deep lying playmaker is a highly unusual tactic and not one many teams are used to. Remember England's ill fated attempt to copy it with Beckham there.

Who puts tacklers in the areas where Pirlo plays. And if they push up players into those zones then Pirlo will pass into the areas that are left exposed.

[Mr Beast]

Will smaller players come back into fashion

TG I totally agree with your assessment of Lennon. It's amazing Spurs let him take corners when he can't even reach the near post with the plastic balls that every other pro can hit 80 yards

[Tactical Genius]

Will smaller players come back into fashion

TG and Dalliance in close agreement shock!!!!

"Iniesta is pretty much Fabregas without the Premiership conditioning. How a player like that might adapt is a mental issue for him, it's hard for us to second guess that. I personally wouldn't be so sure he could though."

Yeah, i would broadly agree with you there.

Having not seen them in the Barca youth team, i would assume that Iniesta was the better prospect at the time hence Fabregas choosing to leave for london.
Iniesta would have to learn to release the ball a bit quicker and or be able to shield the ball a bit better.
On numerous occasions he tried to dribble his way out of trouble only to lose the ball or muscled off it when it would have been better to pass and move (which are his strengths).
If he plays in the premiership as he did in the final, he would not get much success.
Fabregas on the other hand realieses this and does not allow his opponent to get close enough to put in any meaningful tackle.

"I actually think that Pirlo would be a better bet despite him not liking the physical side either. It's mainly down to the positions they play, Iniesta is a creative attacking player who will have to take on defenders at times - and could get muscled out."

I would think the opposite, Nobody, however good you are will last in the premiership unless you can withstand challenges or avoid them. History has taught us that if you apply pressure on Pirlo, he will fold and since his role is so pivotal, his team will fold too.
Iniesta's game is all about passing and moving rather than dribbling, making him similar to Hleb or Fabregas. Pirlo is more static, he picks the ball up from the back and moves it forward quickly and accurately (like Xabi Alonso).

"That's not Pirlo's game though. He's adept at finding space, giving options to teammates and then moving on the ball accurately over short and long distances"

Yep

"By the time a beefier player gets on top of him the ball has been moved on anyway plus, the position he plays means he only really has attack minded players in the same zone. His whole game is space rather than conflict orientated"

As his performances against English teams have shown, put a more physical midfielder forward and he tends to dissappear. Its not that he cannot tackle, he actively hides when the going gets physical.
If he plays in England, he would need two minders in midfield and would have to play further forward.
He would be as disasterous as Veron. No doubt Steven Gerrard prays every night that Pirlo would sign for Man U. Pirlo is the Archetypal European midfielder that i remember from my Youth.
Pirlo has been sused out by English teams now hence Arsenal's demolition of them in the CL his anonymous performance in last years final and the second-half of the 2005 CL final.
In Italy, he is used to dealing with less physical second strikers who used movement and guile. In the premier league he will come up against the likes of Ballack, Gerrard, Torres, Rooney, Nolan, Jennas who are alot more physical and direct than Totti, Cassano et al.

"I recall a couple of years ago Fulham gave Mourinho's Chelsea a really tough game by sitting Malbrank Malnque right on top of Makelele. Everything went through him and it disrupted Chelsea's build up. It's not common though and Pirlo moves the ball better than Makelele."

But Malbranque is about 2 stones heavier than Makelele and is a very good technical footballer.
Plus makelele is not really 50-50 ball winning midfielder. Most of his ball winning is done by making inteceptions or getting in the way of the opponent causing them to miscontrol the ball to Terry or Carvallho or falling over in front of them thus winning free-kicks.
I remeber that game (it was either a draw or a lucky chelsea win). Makelele was occupied marking in the central midfield thus stopping him from covering the overlapping full-backs or the centre-halves and leaving the defence exposed. I don't think malbranque played in that game BTW and it was last season or the season before.