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    #51
    Senna, then

    That wiki is slightly misleading. If someone was in the exact same circumstances today they would be entitled to citizenship. However, when Cascarino made his debut adoption didn't automatically guarantee citizenship so he wasn't eligible.

    His quote was to generate publicity for his book.

    Townsend and Lawrenson were a thousand times more committed than the likes of Stephen Ireland. I was under the impression that every player for Ireland has qualified through grandparent or parent with the exception of Paul Butler and the strange case of Cascarino.

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      #52
      Senna, then

      Thanks for the clarification. I was responding to the suggestion upthread that they weren't even citizens, which is an absolute pre-requisite in my book. I don't particularly care if they have passports, as long as they are eligible for one.

      I would prefer four or five years to two or three, btw.

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        #53
        Senna, then

        Olisadebe does have a Polish Wife. Or he did at the time he was in Poland.

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          #54
          Senna, then

          If Ireland hadn't been subjected to a load of shit in the past then its current population would be about 20 million. Five Roy Keanes!

          So there's no need to feel guilty about using the broadest definition of the diaspora.

          Comment


            #55
            Senna, then

            delicatemoth, Perrotta moved to Italy when he was a kid and is thus an authentic product of Italian football. Obviously he should be allowed to play for them.

            I'd prefer if Hargreaves were playing for Germany or Canada, but as I say, I'd reluctantly allow the parents rule.

            Comment


              #56
              Senna, then

              I find the Qatari football situation more than a little amusing. For reasons probably only Inca understands.

              Comment


                #57
                Senna, then

                Nil Arshavin wrote:
                Townsend and Lawrenson were a thousand times more committed than the likes of Stephen Ireland. I was under the impression that every player for Ireland has qualified through grandparent or parent with the exception of Paul Butler and the strange case of Cascarino.
                But Townsend admitted to supporting England against Ireland prior to being called up by them so how committed could he be? Certainly no more than Senna surely?

                Comment


                  #58
                  Senna, then

                  Bryantop wrote:
                  If Ireland hadn't been subjected to a load of shit in the past then its current population would be about 20 million. Five Roy Keanes!

                  So there's no need to feel guilty about using the broadest definition of the diaspora.
                  So stretching that thought process should the US ignore everyone not Native American and Australia, NZ..... surely you're either from somewhere or your not?

                  Comment


                    #59
                    Senna, then

                    surely you're either from somewhere or your not?
                    The world doesn't work like that anymore.

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                      #60
                      Senna, then

                      Amor de Cosmos wrote:
                      Should Hargreaves, for instance, be able to play for England then? Based on your criteria his parentage says yes, but you can't possibly make a case that he learned to play football there.
                      Quite right, seeing as how he played for Wales at u15, u17 and u19 level ...

                      Comment


                        #61
                        Senna, then

                        Exactly. He's a classic case of why the "Where he Learned to Play" rule can't always work. There will undoubtedly be more examples in coming years.

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                          #62
                          Senna, then

                          As Bryan says, there's a very good reason why a lot of people with Irish parents or grandparents are in Britain.

                          For the vast majority of its existence as an independent nation (i.e. early 1920s onwards), in terms of living standards Ireland was a pretty grim place to be, due in no small part to Britain having wreaked havoc with it for centuries on end. The idea of Ireland being a comfortable, prosperous, well-off country to live in is very, very much a modern phenomenon.

                          So, like Bryan, I'm not going to apologise for some of Ireland's better players down the years having qualified through the grandparent rule. England can have Kilbane and Connolly and Morrison back though.

                          Comment


                            #63
                            Senna, then

                            There's a very simple rule of thumb here, which in fairness to them FIFA have attempted to apply, despite some countries (notably Qatar and (potential can of worms) Northern Ireland) taking the piss.

                            Basically, if somebody is entitled to citizenship of your country, under the normal provisions for citizenship, whether or not they take it up in cases where dual citizenship is barred, they should be entitled to play for the national team. anything else is silliness.

                            Cascarino thought himself London-Irish. And given that he was playing in good faith the whole time, he was perfectly entitled to, I'd have thought.

                            Comment


                              #64
                              Senna, then

                              So, do all the people who think that any naturalised player should be entitled to play for his new country think that the rule that only allows someone to ever play for one country should be scrapped too? After all, if Senna is as Spanish as Casillas now, would it make any di8fference if he'd played a game for Brazil when he was 19?

                              Comment


                                #65
                                Senna, then

                                I think it should only ever be one country - no matter what level - if a player has played a competitive match for a particular country then he should be tied for life.

                                That way we would never have had to put up with Ben Thatcher!

                                Comment


                                  #66
                                  Senna, then

                                  The rule limiting players to a single national team in other than extraordinary circumstances is essential; I can't believe that anyone really wants a return to the days of the early Oriundi, when Italy pillaged the Argentine and Uruguayan national teams on their way to the '34 and '38 World Cups. And while I think that it is overly harsh to apply it to teenagers, I do think that U-21 football (at least in Europe) has become sufficiently "top flight" that one's choice at that level should be one's choice for life.

                                  Personally, I don't believe in the concept of being "more", "less" or "as" [fill in nationality here] as another person; nationality is too complicated a concept in this day and age. I do, however, believe that international sporting organisations have the right to impose restrictions above and beyond those set by individual countries in the granting of citizenship in order to preserve the integrity of the sport, and would put the "one country only" rule in that category.

                                  Comment


                                    #67
                                    Senna, then

                                    OK lots of grey areas clearly. Hibs currently have a young forward called Steven Fletcher. He was born in England and lived there until about 10 before moving to Scotland where he has remained. His father is Scottish and he has now represented Scotland at football.
                                    Hearts have a young forward called Andrew Driver, he was born in England but moved to Scotland as a child and was raised and schooled here. Both his parents are English and despite the player stating that he thinks of himself as Scottish and wishing to be available to play for Scotland he has been told he can't. I guess what I'm saying is the notion of 'feeling' you belong to a certain country isn't enough in the eyes of FIFA in some cases but it is in others.
                                    Bull bull what was John Barnes claim to England? I could be mistaken but I seem to remember him being eligible for about 5 countries but choosing England, is this the kind of 'taking the piss' you mean?

                                    Comment


                                      #68
                                      Senna, then

                                      AMMS, the example of the "English" Scot is probably unique to the UK as in any other country he would have qualified under residency rules.

                                      There is a story of young lad here in north west Wales who was a decent young footballer and played for Wales' schools teams at every age group. However he wasn't allowed to play for Wales as his parents (who are English) moved here when he was a few months old.
                                      He considers himself to be Welsh, is a fluent Welsh speaker and his English accent has to be heard to be believed but in Uefa and Fifa's eyes he can only play for England.

                                      However, if Wales was independent - stick with me here - he would qualify for a Welsh passport on residency grounds and be eligible for Wales as he hasn't ever played for any other country.

                                      Comment


                                        #69
                                        Senna, then

                                        Andy Dorman - currently with St Mirren - is another example . Lived all his life in Wales but, like his parents and grandparents, was born in Chester as Flintshire doesn't have a maternity hospital.

                                        He considers himself to be Welsh and has even contacted the FAW to see if he is eligible ... but he's not.

                                        Another Flintshire resident, a certain Mr Rush famously insisted the ambulancemen take his wife to St Asaph and not to Chester when young Ian was about to come into the world.

                                        Comment


                                          #70
                                          Senna, then

                                          Hearts have a young forward called Andrew Driver, he was born in England but moved to Scotland as a child and was raised and schooled here. Both his parents are English and despite the player stating that he thinks of himself as Scottish and wishing to be available to play for Scotland he has been told he can't.
                                          Who told him? It's slightly more complicated for UK citizens. Since you don't have English, Irish, Scottish or Welsh on your passports the FA's have come up with their own rules. However, if he's been resident there as a schoolboy and has lived there for five years I don't know why he shouldn't be allowed to play.

                                          Bull bull was referring to the cases of Qatar paying Brazilians and other nationalities to take a fast track route to citizenship in their country so as to represent the national team. His other example was Northern Ireland. Their FA has decided that the Good Friday Agreement should not apply for players who are entitled to citizenship and would prefer to play for the Republic of Ireland.

                                          My point about Townsend's commitment was once he made his decision to play for Ireland he gave great service to the team. Some players born and raised in the country didn't show anywhere near his enthusiasm for the national side.

                                          Comment


                                            #71
                                            Senna, then

                                            I guess this is another load of problems that could be solved if there was a UK national team instead of the four bits.

                                            Comment


                                              #72
                                              Senna, then

                                              Quick, write to Sebastian Coe, I don't think he's used that one yet.

                                              Comment


                                                #73
                                                Senna, then

                                                Jimmy Bignutz wrote:
                                                I guess this is another load of problems that could be solved if there was a UK national team instead of the four bits.
                                                I prefer the problems ...

                                                Comment


                                                  #74
                                                  Senna, then

                                                  Who told him? It's slightly more complicated for UK citizens. Since you don't have English, Irish, Scottish or Welsh on your passports the FA's have come up with their own rules. However, if he's been resident there as a schoolboy and has lived there for five years I don't know why he shouldn't be allowed to play.
                                                  There's essentially, I think I'm right in saying, a gentleman's agreement between the Home FAs that to play for any one of them a player must have either a grandparent from the country or have been born there. Otherwise, anyone from any part of the UK could play for any of the home nations. And Driver can't get Scottish citizenship by virtue of residency. I think technically, by FIFA regulations, he could play for any of the home nations - but to play for anyone other than England would breach the gentleman's agreement that's in place, and that way chaos lies. So the Scottish FA will uphold this agreement - basically for the very survival of the Scottish national team.

                                                  His other example was Northern Ireland. Their FA has decided that the Good Friday Agreement should not apply for players who are entitled to citizenship and would prefer to play for the Republic of Ireland.
                                                  I thought he was referring to the likes of the Whitleys and Maik Taylor.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #75
                                                    Senna, then

                                                    There should be a mechanism to look at the gentleman's agreement on a case by case basis. I don't think that many would argue against the examples raised there.

                                                    I'm sure he was referring to Darron Gibson and the ongoing row between the FAI, IFA and FIFA about what to do in the future in a similar case.

                                                    Comment

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