Senna, then

[Kusal Flyer]

Senna, then

To be fair to Dunc, I think that he has always expresed his position as their having a choice, but he himself having a preference as to how they exercise that choice

Indeed. Thanks Ursus. Upthread, I made my support for choice clear as below before Harri took offence.

What's absurd in someone who has spent basically his entire life in England having the choice to play for England? I'm not criticising Giggs, his parents, the WRU, or anyone else involved bar the FAs who set the criteria. I accept that wanting international players to have grown up and gone to school in the country will look restrictive, and that it's a minority view, but how so mad?

Because he is in no way English. He has UK citizenship, Welsh place of birth and Welsh grandparentage. He lives in England but that confers no citizenship of that country because such a thing doesn't exist. Oh, and your earlier comment referring to being born to Welsh parents and living in Wales until the age of seven as "an accident of birth" is just fucking offensive

[Ray de Galles]

Senna, then

Er, I took offense (and I still do) at the reduction of his birthplace, entire life up to the age of seven and his parental heritage as "an accident of birth" not your overall idea.

You've only recently clarified your standpoint as (and I paraphrase) "I want people to have the choice but my preference is that they choose where they "grew up"/went to school" and your position has seemed to vary in severity through the discussion, hence some of the surprised responses you've had from a few people.

[Bored Of Education]

Senna, then

QUOTE:

See, the fact that you don't think that Giggs playing for Wales when he was born in Wales as were his parents and grandparents (apart from the Sri Lankan one) is sensible is where we differ greatly

Yeah, I know we differ. Although not quite in the way you suggest. Allowing Giggs to have played to England isn't the same as banning him from playing for Wales. I do keep stressing he should have had the choice.

I disagree with your stance on Giggs playing for England through residency but am happy to accept that you don't think that him playing for Wales is nonsense.

I am not sure whether this has been your stance throughout the thread but it's cleared up now anyhow

[Duncan Gardner]

Senna, then

Harri and Bored- here are my only two comments on the Welsh situation made before my emphasis on choice quoted at 12:42,

Otherwise, I'm with Etienne. No international football if you haven't played schools and youth

I'm merely suggesting that having grown up and been to school in NI (or wherever) should be the main criterion for playing international football for us

12:42 (ie, my third comment) makes clear that I think players should have a choice, although I am likely to disagree with many of them. My attitude has been consistent thereafter.

[Jorge Porbillas]

Senna, then

This is an interesting angle on this discussion:

from the BBC

[Bored Of Education]

Senna, then

That's odd though, if he was born in Sicily, he should have had Italian qualification from day one, I would have thought, no matter what his parentage

[ursus arctos]

Senna, then

No, because Italy doesn't provide people like Balotelli with passports before they turn 18. "Unusual" rules like that are one of the things that makes this issue as complicated as it is.

Spangles and I have spoken about this on here before, but it will be a very great day for Italy when guys like Balotelli and Stefano Okaka (of Roma) get their first full cap. Italy doesn't have the pool of talent to re-create France's "blanc, black, beur" team of '98, but their emergence into the full squad will still be a very important event, especially in the current political environment.

[Ray de Galles]

Senna, then

Duncan Gardner wrote:

Harri and Bored- here are my only two comments on the Welsh situation made before my emphasis on choice quoted at 12:42,

Otherwise, I'm with Etienne. No international football if you haven't played schools and youth

I'm merely suggesting that having grown up and been to school in NI (or wherever) should be the main criterion for playing international football for us

12:42 (ie, my third comment) makes clear that I think players should have a choice, although I am likely to disagree with many of them. My attitude has been consistent thereafter.

I am not talking about "the Welsh situation" and I wasn't aware we were discussing that seperate of the overall discussion, it was just an example from current football and my own personal situation.

Your position on the entire issue has been open to contradictory readings because you havent always made it clear that you believe in players having a choice, hence the comments from others above.

[Ray de Galles]

Senna, then

ursus arctos wrote:

Spangles and I have spoken about this on here before, but it will be a very great day for Italy when guys like Balotelli and Stefano Okaka (of Roma) get their first full cap. Italy doesn't have the pool of talent to re-create France's "blanc, black, beur" team of '98, but their emergence into the full squad will still be a very important event...

Genuine question, why will it differ from when Liverani got his caps?

[Duncan Gardner]

Senna, then

Your position on the entire issue has been open to contradictory readings because you havent always made it clear that you believe in players having a choice, hence the comments from others above

I made it clear early and I haven't contradicted it since, as far as I can see.

Would people think differently of Ballotelli had he been born in Accra and moved to Sicily as a baby? Anyway, I look forward to him marking McGeady in the WC qualifiers.

[ursus arctos]

Senna, then

Balotelli is a striker, Dunc.

I certainly wouldn't think of him any differently if he had been born in Accra, but imagine that the fact that he was born here (and then given up for adoption as an infant) makes a difference to some people.

[Ray de Galles]

Senna, then

Duncan Gardner wrote:

I made it clear early and I haven't contradicted it since, as far as I can see.

I think we may have a screen name recognition problem then. I thought you were the poster currently listed as "We built this Villiers" (as you've both used multiple pseudonyms through this discussion) but checking back it appears not.

Apologies.

[Duncan Gardner]

Senna, then

Never mind the apology, quote your evidence Harri?

[Ray de Galles]

Senna, then

Are you "Villiers" then? I wasn't being sarcastic.

The comments (currently) under that name like ;

No international football if you haven't played schools and youth

The main criterion for choosing where to play international football should be where the player grows up and attends school. Not where his parents did, or other accident of birth.

(regarding the grandparent rule) As I've said I'd abolish it.

seem pretty strongly anti-choice to my mind.

So, that was your seeming intial position though one which you have clarified since (actually, Ursus felt the need to sum up your position and he did so quite effectively with "their having a choice, but he himself having a preference as to how they exercise that choice").

[Duncan Gardner]

Senna, then

Harri- yes, I made all those comments under two user names.

No international football if you haven't played schools and youth

and

The main criterion for choosing where to play international football should be where the player grows up and attends school. Not where his parents did, or other accident of birth

came (both on page 6 above) before I said (page 7) that Giggs specifically (and by association other cases established by residence) should have had the choice to play for England. That should have ended any ambiguity, as I'm fairly sure I haven't contradicted it since.

(regarding the grandparent rule) As I've said I'd abolish it

It doesn't contradict the Giggs example- it doesn't restrict choice unfairly in my opinion or in that many examples in practice as far as I can see. You have to have an arbitrary line somewhere. In that sense, anyone arguing against a great-granny rule would be restricting choice to some extent.

[Ray de Galles]

Senna, then

Duncan Gardner wrote:

Harri- yes, I made all those comments under two user names.

No international football if you haven't played schools and youth

and

The main criterion for choosing where to play international football should be where the player grows up and attends school. Not where his parents did, or other accident of birth

came (both on page 6 above) before I said (page 7) that Giggs specifically (and by association other cases established by residence) should have had the choice to play for England. That should have ended any ambiguity, as I'm fairly sure I haven't contradicted it since.

ER, yes. Which is why I wrote ;

I must admit that I couldn't see that Duncan was suggesting that there should be any choice in his intial pronouncements either. His positions seems much more sensible (even if I don't agree with them) now that he's clarified.

I used "only recently" in a subsequent mail which was erroneous though.

[Bored Of Education]

Senna, then

Would people think differently of Ballotelli had he been born in Accra and moved to Sicily as a baby?

Yes, I would (assuming that I haven't missed something and Accra is a Italian territory or somesuch.

If, however, he was granted citizenship as a baby then it would, obviously, be more acceptable than anyone who has been fast-tracked by a country having already been a professional footballer.

Having said that, these cases are still so rare that I am happy with the current rules as they are with these few cases (which are citizenship issues anyhow) slipping through.

[Guest]

Senna, then

Just found a long (but not necessarily complete) list of Brazilians who have played for other countries.

Turns out that neither Amarildo Zela nor Daniel Batista, both mentioned a good few pages ago on this thread, were Brazilians. The former was an actual Albanian and the latter was from the Cape Verde Islands.

Armenia: Marcos Pizzelli (2008-)

Azerbaijan: Leandro Melino (2006-), André Ladaga (2006-), Marcos Ferreira (2007), Ernani Pereira (2006-)

Belgium: Luís Oliveira (1992-1999)

Bosnia Herzegovina: Ricardo Baiano Santos (2004)

Bulgaria: Tiago Silva (2006), Lúcio Wagner (2006-2007)

Chile: Marcos González (2002-2005)

Costa Rica: Alexandre Guimarães (1988-1990)

Croatia: Eduardo da Silva (2004-)

El Salvador: Israel Castro Franco (1996-2000), Nildeson de Mello (1997-2005)

Equatorial Guinea: Ronan Carolino Falcão (2006-)

Germany: Kevin Kurányi (2003-), Paulo Roberto Rink (1998-2000)

Honduras: Denílson Costa (2003-2005)

Hong Kong: Cristiano Cordeiro (2004-)

Hungary: Leandro de Almeida (2004-)

Italy: José Altafini (1961-1962), Dino da Costa (1958), Anfilogino Guarisi (1934), Ángelo Sormani (1962-1963)

Japan: Wagner Lopes (1997-1999), Ruy Ramos (1989-1995), Alex dos Santos (2001-), Marcos Tulio Tanaka (2006-)

Lebanon: Luís Fernandes (2000-2004), Gilberto dos Santos (2000-2004), Marcilio Alves Silva (2000)

Macedonia: Aguinaldo de Jesus Braga (2002-2003)

Mexico: Antônio Naelson (2004-)

Poland: Roger Guerreiro (2008-)

Portugal: Anderson Deco (2003-),

Qatar: Fabio César Montezine (2008-), Márcio Emerson Passos (2008-)

Singapore: Egmar Gonçalves (2002-2007)

Spain: Catanha Guedes (2000), Donato Gama da Silva (1994-1996), Marcos Senna (2006-)

Trinidad & Tobago: José Luís Seabra (2005)

Tunisia: José Clayton (1998-2005), Francileudo dos Santos (2004-)

Turkey: Mehmet Aurélio (2006-)

USA: Alex Ely (1960-1965), Benny Feilhaber (2007-), Carlos Metidieri (1971), Jorge Siega (1973)

[Duncan Gardner]

Senna, then

Interesting list. Essentially, a lot of countries have used a few ringers. (I know Lebanon- say- are likely to have cast their recruitment net even wider than Brazil, but doubt it gained them a huge number of players).

[AMMS]

Senna, then

El Salvador: Israel Castro Franco (1996-2000), Nildeson de Mello (1997-2005)

What a name, now thats what I call hedging your bets.

[Guest]

Senna, then

Ha ha ha ha.

I remember years ago at the World Cup there was a Salvadorean referee called Vladimir Fernandez. Imagine living in a place like El Salvador with a first name like Vladimir.

[Incandenza]

Senna, then

Hieronymus of Hesselink wrote:

USA: Alex Ely (1960-1965), Benny Feilhaber (2007-), Carlos Metidieri (1971), Jorge Siega (1973)

[/quote]
Feilhaber was indeed born in Brazil, but he moved to the US when he was 6.