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    #26
    Worst XI of Euro 2012

    There's a type of save that keepers make which always get overrated by pundits and fans. this save is usually when an opponent is at quite close range and blasts a shot invariably at the body of the keeper who will usually parry it.

    They always look quite spectacular because of the elements involved, a hard struck shot from close range and the big physical action of the keeper in swatting at it. But these are actually pretty functional saves. Often even if the keeper just stood there then he would save it anyway, his body is in the way after all so the ball should just bounce back off it. Keepers should be criticised if they don't save those ones, anything that is directly at their body or very close to it then a good keeper you expect to get something on it.

    The Torres shot, he created a set of rugby posts with his head as the bar and his arms in the air and Torres scored a conversion through the gap. It was poor. Fabregas too, his shot just about glanced past him at hip level from a very narrow angle. He was slow and he was static there.

    The Silva one was a little different, he was there but he just dived over it.

    Comment


      #27
      Worst XI of Euro 2012

      Whelan - Is very good at shouting at people.

      This is palpably not true. it would interfere with his major trick of being completely invisible. and Was jonas olsson really worse than steven ward?

      Given is becoming increasingly diminished by injuries, but during the tournament he was also actually injured, and barely able to train. Now that is a different kettle of fingerpointing.

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        #28
        Worst XI of Euro 2012

        Given looked it and if it was the case then that actually reflects even more poorly on him than his abject performances.

        You can have the best medical staff in the world at your command but you need honesty from the player. If he looks you in the eye and tells you he is fit to play when he is not because he is chasing cap totals, then he is a bad professional who is taking the piss out of his teammates and the management.

        Why Trap didn't drop him anyway for the Italy game when the result didn't really matter is beyond me.

        Comment


          #29
          Worst XI of Euro 2012

          I'd say Given was culpable for four goals, the opener against Croatia, The first two against Spain and the opener against Italy.

          However, as bad as he was, he wasn't helped by the wretched defence in front of him. While he should have stopped, or at least reacted quicker for Torres first goal, the reason Torres had the ball in the first place was because Richard Dunne had made a tackle, and was looking to clear the ball, but he couldn't get his huge leg to swing fast enough and Torres nipped in to get the ball. Stephen Ward then obligingly allowed Torres into a shooting position without so much as a tackle.

          The Silva goal came about after Dunne gave the ball away. Sure, Given's punch was poor, but just look at this defending:



          As Byianiek said, the corner that Cassano scored from came from a howler from given, but again that chance came because of a terrible pass from Whelan in midfield.

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            #30
            Worst XI of Euro 2012

            I wouldn't blame given for the first goal torres scored. He was completely free to blast it straight over his head which is the most difficult part of the "cage" to save in. The same for cassano's header. (whatever about the concession of the corner)

            Comment


              #31
              Worst XI of Euro 2012

              Given looked it and if it was the case then that actually reflects even more poorly on him than his abject performances

              yes, but it is understandable. and entirely consistent with the way that Ireland have operated since the arrival of shay given on the scene. Being ireland's no 2 goalie has to have been the most frustrating job in the world. It drove dean kiely to distraction.

              You can have the best medical staff in the world at your command but you need honesty from the player. If he looks you in the eye and tells you he is fit to play when he is not because he is chasing cap totals, then he is a bad professional who is taking the piss out of his teammates and the management.

              Ah, you're making the assumption that he hid something from trap. What you are forgetting is that trap would have preferred him out there in that condition, than try someone else.

              Why Trap didn't drop him anyway for the Italy game when the result didn't really matter is beyond me.

              ah, Trap reverted to the croatian team that he believed to be his strongest one, because he didn't want croatia or spain to be accusing him of fielding a 'weakened team'. Personally I think he just wanted to stick with the same players and it was an excuse. Either way it was total madness.

              Again don't get me wrong, I think that trap is a superhero, but he's really the wrong man in the wrong job.

              Comment


                #32
                Worst XI of Euro 2012

                dalliance wrote: Second worst might have been that young Dutch left back Willems who looked utter, utterly out of his depth.
                Is it patronising of me to say I find it a little unfair to pick this guy in one's worst XI? I feel van Marwijk threw him under the bus somewhat.

                Comment


                  #33
                  Worst XI of Euro 2012

                  Rooney was terrible against Italy. He looked completely off the pace and unable to control the ball.

                  Carroll was good when he came on, but he replaced Wellback rather than Wayne the "talisman" - a decision that had me shouting at the TV in frustration!

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                    #34
                    Worst XI of Euro 2012

                    Carroll was good?? All I saw was the ball bouncing off his head and going out of play.

                    Rooney seems to get exposed every tournament by the first good defence he plays against.

                    Comment


                      #35
                      Worst XI of Euro 2012

                      satchmo76 wrote: Carroll was good?? All I saw was the ball bouncing off his head and going out of play.
                      He also elbowed Pirlo in the back of the head a few times.

                      Comment


                        #36
                        Worst XI of Euro 2012

                        Is it patronising of me to say I find it a little unfair to pick this guy in one's worst XI? I feel van Marwijk threw him under the bus somewhat.
                        I guess when a player gets three games as Willems did then he's putting himself in the firing line for criticism.

                        But yes, if he is the second best Dutch left-back then they have problems.

                        Van der Wiel everyone seems to agree was awful as well. Was there any nation at the tournament with a weaker sets of fullbacks than the Dutch? Italy had two different sets who were both miles better.

                        Comment


                          #37
                          Worst XI of Euro 2012

                          Given did look static for Fabregas's goal. Fabregas shot the ball from the five to six metres out, completely unmarked and it was probably the hardest shot made in the entire tournament. Jesus, of course Given looked static.

                          If keepers are expected to save every free shot from five metres out then surely they should also be expected to save every penalty kick as well? That's from 11 metres, over twice the distance!

                          Comment


                            #38
                            Worst XI of Euro 2012

                            dalliance wrote:
                            Is it patronising of me to say I find it a little unfair to pick this guy in one's worst XI? I feel van Marwijk threw him under the bus somewhat.
                            I guess when a player gets three games as Willems did then he's putting himself in the firing line for criticism.

                            But yes, if he is the second best Dutch left-back then they have problems.
                            He's not though, he's their fourth best left-back. Van Marwijk chose to leave Vurnon Anita and Urby Emanuelson at home. They're more left wing-backs than true left-backs, but they are much more experienced at top level football - especially Emanuelson. Throwing an 18 year old with only 20 league appearances for PSV into the Dutch starting lineup was pure stupidity.

                            Comment


                              #39
                              Worst XI of Euro 2012

                              Emanuelson seems to be a full time midfielder at Milan these days though.

                              Given did look static for Fabregas's goal. Fabregas shot the ball from the five to six metres out, completely unmarked and it was probably the hardest shot made in the entire tournament. Jesus, of course Given looked static.

                              If keepers are expected to save every free shot from five metres out then surely they should also be expected to save every penalty kick as well? That's from 11 metres, over twice the distance!
                              Eh? From a penalty kick a player has a wide shooting angle to aim at. If he hits the ball with any decent conviction and finds the bottom or top corner of the net then the best keepers on the planet cannot save them.

                              A penalty kick is also a dead ball with as much time as a player needs to think about it, run up and then shoot. Fabregas took a moving ball on the spin in a crowded penalty area, he was left with a very narrow angle to find and yet he scored it and it virtually brushed Given on the way in.

                              Any body movement or reaction from the keeper in the direction of the ball and he would probably have got enough on it. But no, he stood still and watched it which was in line with his entire campaign.

                              To say he fell beneath his usual standards as you did up thread is a masterpiece of understatement.

                              Comment


                                #40
                                Worst XI of Euro 2012

                                It's the kind of goal you have to watch in real time. That ball is moving at speed from near point-blank range. If you guess right, you might save it. But it's a bit of a lottery.

                                The marking is something else. You see the Irish players in the box, all straight-jacketed into Trap's marking system, pointing that somebody should pick up Fabregas. But they can't just run on to him themselves... because they are too busy marking thin air.

                                Comment


                                  #41
                                  Worst XI of Euro 2012

                                  Analogue Bubblebath II wrote: Szczesny

                                  van der Wiel
                                  Hubnik
                                  Dunne
                                  Willems

                                  Milner
                                  van Bommel
                                  Whelan
                                  Young

                                  Samaras
                                  Kerzhakov

                                  Rooney, Balotelli, Torres, Malouda, Toivonen and a lot of Irish and Dutch players were also heavily in contention.
                                  Balotelli? Get real AB II! The bloke may have the cerebral capacity of one yard dirt track but he performed at the EURO by exceeding all expectations.

                                  Comment


                                    #42
                                    Worst XI of Euro 2012

                                    Italy had six matches. Balotelli played well in one of them.

                                    He was very bad against Spain, Croatia, England, and Spain again. His no-show against the Croats meant that he got dropped for the Ireland match. He then came on for the final 20 minutes of that game and scored as the game was finishing up.

                                    And it's not as if he was just quiet in those games. He was actively bad. He seemed to have no awareness of where his team-mates were, he routinely made a mess of simple chances, and some of his shooting nearly went out of the stadia (admittedly, he was far from alone in repeatedly ballooning the ball miles over the bar).

                                    The wankfest about him has been pretty ridiculous. As Martin O'Neill once said (though not about Balotelli), if you gain a reputation for getting up early, you can stay in bed all day.

                                    Comment


                                      #43
                                      Worst XI of Euro 2012

                                      that's not a martin o'neill original.

                                      i don't think you can credibly put balotelli in the worst 23 of the tournament when his performance in the semi will be one of the few things people will remember about the tournament in 20 years. along with shay given's goalkeeping.

                                      my analysis of given on the 9 (nine) goals ireland conceded

                                      1) mandzukic, croatia 1-0. disaster. given doesn't realise what's happening, reacts late to a header that drifts like a dandelion blossom into the net, brushing his fingertips on the way.

                                      2) jelavic croatia 2-1 given exposed by ward's incredible defensive howler but again reacted slowly and did little to put jelavic off.

                                      3) mandzukic croatia 3-1. unlucky

                                      4) torres spain 1-0. given a lace curtain in the way of a shot that passed directly through his hands. obviously ward was utterly hopeless and dunne should have cleared it, but if given had saved it, i would have said "lucky torres hit it straight at him."

                                      5) silva spain 2-0. given created this one with a bizarre punch straight to the goalscorer in the middle of the penalty area. the shot trundled in underneath him but in fairness he was partially unsighted by the three flailing defenders in front of him.

                                      6) torres spain 3-0. torres put this away really well, i can't fault given's effort.

                                      7) fabregas spain 4-0. i think given, like the rest of the irish team, was punch drunk at this stage and incapable of effective reactions. the shot passed close to him but was hit very hard. the fault lies with the defenders who never picked up the only spanish player in the box.

                                      8) cassano italy 1-0. this was a tour de force of disaster from given. with the team playing quite well, he unsettled the pattern by rushing out to intercept a ball around the corner of his area and being beaten to it. although ireland repelled that attack, you sensed nervousness in the team and given's next action was to packie bonner a 30 yard shot around the post for a corner. he then let yet another effort pass between his arms on the way into the net.

                                      9) balotelli italy 2-0. nothing he could do here, a shot cracked past him from close range with o'shea screening the striker from view.

                                      the low points were the first and eighth goals. the first because it set the tone for the entire tournament. the eighth because it tore away the last tattered fragments of given's dignity. but note that on each occasion he's been at least partly responsible for the key goals in the match. i don't see how anyone can keep him out of the worst XI. i'm afraid that's what can happen when you try to ignore the fact that you're injured so you can play in an international tournament.

                                      Comment


                                        #44
                                        Worst XI of Euro 2012

                                        Berbaslug -- it's Martin Olsson. And I'm giving Ward the benefit of the doubt as he did appear to be fouled on that awful clearance.

                                        Comment


                                          #45
                                          Worst XI of Euro 2012

                                          You see, this is the problem when a keeper is playing bad. People start getting over-critical and looking for faults where they wouldn't have looked before. Given made some errors, but when I read garcia's summary you'd think we had Tino Asprilla in goal.

                                          Criticising him for running out and trying to intercept that ball against Italy is really, really harsh. That passage of play was the result of an enormous Irish midfield fuck up and Given had no choice but to do what he did. And it worked out in the end I think, even if he didn't get the ball he managed, as last man, to shepherd the play over to that area for a few seconds while the others got back. If he hadn't have come out of goal the Italians would have scored I think. And then you'd be saying he should have come out of goal.

                                          And I still think blaming him for the Torres and Fabregas goals is very harsh. Those shots were made totally unmarked from near point blank range. All you can do then as a keeper is stick your hands out in some random place and hope the ball hits them. It's a case of not having time to engage your reflexes. In the Spain match he also pulled off some class saves and one of them was the save of the tournament. I would say he only made one mistake in the Spain match, and that was the parry for the David Silva goal. Mr. Forward Dive of OTF was complimentary of his performance Spain, if I remember correctly.

                                          but note that on each occasion he's been at least partly responsible for the key goals in the match.
                                          This is like a sentence said by a slippery prosecution lawyer to the unwitting jury. The use of "each occasion" implies he's always in the wrong, even if you are covering your backside by mentioning only "key goals" and "partly responsible."

                                          I can fault Given for three things: 1.) Not saving the first goal against Croatia, which was a freak header, but still, he should have gotten there. 2.) Parrying a shot at the wrong angle against Spain and 3.) Giving away a corner against Italy.

                                          Given's biggest problem is that he usually made a mistake like that once every five years and everybody is just spoiled rotten. Clearly he is not as good as he used to be and he wasn't fully fit. But is Kieren Westwood really the answer? Let's not rush to judgement.

                                          If you are looking for the worst keeper in the tournament you need to sit down and watch Germany-Greece with the same death-tinted spectacles that you use to judge Given. Or was it you? Did you steal my Kilbane-tinted spectacles? I've been looking for those.

                                          Comment


                                            #46
                                            Worst XI of Euro 2012

                                            I agree that Given wasn't at his best, but you could have put Buffon, Casillas, Neuer or whoever you like behind that defence and they wouldn't have done much better. And I'd also pick the Greek keeper, whose name evades me (Sifakis?) for the Worst XI- he was proper dodgy!

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