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    #76
    Last night's Panorama

    Defensive minded wrote: I don't think Panorama made any such suggestion. What the programme did imply is that the problem isn't being dealt with or only to a very low degree.
    It did by default, I think. A documentary isn't an essay, so any argumental narrative will be diffuse, and defined by what isn't said as much by stuff that is said. They said Ukrainian society contained racism that wasn't being dealt with, at no point did they say that the vast majority of Ukrainains weren't racist.

    I wouldn't say that people are by definition more rascist in East Germany than West Germany. The problem is that in some areas rascism is accepted more by the general public. There are some areas in Brandenburg called "national befreite Zonen (national liberated zones), where it is dangerous for non-white people to go out in the evening. The observation I've made is that racism is worst in areas where barely any non-whites live. It's seems to be the case that racism is often based on fear and ignorance.
    That's interesting, cheers. But applies to East Germany rather than the Ukraine, no?

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      #77
      Last night's Panorama

      Magik wrote: So you'd probably like to tell us what was the situation during the 1936 Olympics.

      "majority of people may be friendly in Ukraine, but there is a large minority of homophobe, rascist people in Eastern European who can be life-threatening to anyone who varies from the norm."

      This applies to any country in the world to be honest. You can find subhuman large minority of scum anywhere really, not only in eastern europe.
      And there's the rub. Take some footage of the EDL/SDL here in the UK, stick it in a documentary similar to Panorama's representation of Poland/Ukraine and bingo. The UK is inherently unwelcoming and racist.

      Having been to Poland twice and returning for a third time in October I've noticed the occasional expression of racism. Most worrying was the monkey chanting at a black Tur Turek player - at Lechia unfortunately Magik. It was however sporadic and not representative of the Lechia support as a whole, merely the fuckwits who chose to do this. It exists, as it does in the UK - we've just been more succesful in forcing it underground in or near our stadia. Eastern European clubs need to be cracking down harder on this but again, it is not representative.

      Most would regard Edinburgh as relatively tolerant but I'm aware of a number of murders in the city in which race has been cited as an issue in the last ten years or so.

      Comment


        #78
        Last night's Panorama

        [quote]RobM wrote:
        Originally posted by Magik
        Most worrying was the monkey chanting at a black Tur Turek player - at Lechia unfortunately Magik. It was however sporadic and not representative of the Lechia support as a whole, merely the fuckwits who chose to do this.
        Remember it like it was yesterday, had a massive hangover...

        It happens from time to time, even near the end of last season there were 'oo oo oos' towards our own player Razack Traore...The hard core thought he didn't care as he should and we were third from bottom and losing at home at the time it was pretty tense. But you'd be glad to hear those who did it got a warning slap from the leaders. Hope it won't happen this season at the most beatiful football ground in Europe. You should pop over Rob and see for yourself, I know that my Hearts mates are planning a visit too...

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          #79
          Last night's Panorama

          I'd rather be heading back to Gdansk/Sopot than Krakow in October Magik but when we were there last we took my father-in-law who has died since.

          Think there's too many memories there at the moment and it's a wee bit too soon, we will be back though. Tell Andy I'm asking for him, not seen him in a long time.

          What's happened to the old ground?

          Comment


            #80
            Last night's Panorama

            Magik wrote: So you'd probably like to tell us what was the situation during the 1936 Olympics.

            "majority of people may be friendly in Ukraine, but there is a large minority of homophobe, rascist people in Eastern European who can be life-threatening to anyone who varies from the norm."

            This applies to any country in the world to be honest. You can find subhuman large minority of scum anywhere really, not only in eastern europe.
            Irony alert required on thread about prejudice!
            So 'sub-human scum' is acceptable language on OTF?

            How about mistaken people, ignorant people, culturally culturally deprived/impoverished people instead?

            Unless one thinks that unfortunate attitudes are invariant and it is beyond the scope of people to adopt different ones?

            Comment


              #81
              Last night's Panorama

              Fuck off Evan.

              Comment


                #82
                Last night's Panorama

                Rob - you mean Andy the Llama?

                Comment


                  #83
                  Last night's Panorama

                  That's the one Magik - The Dalry Llama - possibly the best nickname ever.

                  Used to go to the Hearts away games on the same bus as him.

                  Comment


                    #84
                    Last night's Panorama

                    Baumann wrote: How about mistaken people, ignorant people, culturally culturally deprived/impoverished people instead?
                    There's more than one of you?

                    Comment


                      #85
                      Last night's Panorama

                      I thought the Panorama programme was poor. A presenter stupidly out of his depth, going "Oooh" and "Aaah" at the sight of a riot van.

                      Racism has and will continue to be a major problem in most of Central & Eastern Europe, but it was never going to affect Euro 2012, because most of the spectators will not be from the same demographic (and in most places, they'll be from a different country altogether!)

                      There was no serious attempt by the presenter to explore why racism is such a problem in these countries, place it into context (i.e. poverty, economic woes, history, little contact with "ethnic minorities", etc, etc), and seek to make an intelligent and thought-provoking documentary. Instead, it was alarmist and uninformed, and getting Sol to comment on random video footage from the Lodz derby was unfair.

                      It'll take more than an exciteable BBC presenter to raise the profile of this issue, which is wider than eastern Europe anyway (monkey chants in Holland - that supposedly "tolerant" country - are extremely common, not to mention our own sceptred isle).

                      So...yeah, racism is bad, but so was that documentary, maybe they deserve each other...

                      Comment


                        #86
                        Last night's Panorama

                        I find it very strange this whole pointing finger at a part of Europe where they're supposedly more racist, haven't dealt with it as they have in other parts and it's to be shocking.

                        It's not like UK, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, or you name it, are so far ahead. It's not like Eastern Europe is Middle Ages and the above mentioned are so fucking modern and way ahead with being normal in their stance. It's only a 20-30 year difference. You only have to travel 20-30 years back in time to find the exact same shit in the above mentioned countries. Only travel 60 years back in time to find among the most deranged in history in one of them, which wasn't even the fault of one country only and I don't mean Italy or Japan here.
                        This is what I find so fucked up with the whole debate. If the one's pointing, if they had a very long history of being so bloody brilliant with racism within their own borders, that might be fine, but they don't.

                        This bullshit that they do nothing or little about it in Ukraine or Poland, is false propaganda.
                        What on earth can you do about it?
                        Do you really think that racism on the stands in UK is so much better - which it is - not as tolerated due to some action taken by the government? What on earth do you think changed it? Three colour posters all over the country with the message "stop racism!".
                        That made people stop and think and change!?
                        Do you really think that was it?
                        Do you think that Kevin in Berkshire who has a deranged view regarding the Asian immigrant population, he went to work, saw a poster and overnight changed?
                        Do you think it was legislations, that if you chant a monkey sound you can get arrested and that's why it's become better? Like fuck it was. Have you ever heard of a dozen hidden in a crowd of 20,000 being arrested for that?
                        It's a nation in development sorting it sheep herd style, that's how it changed, where people learn normal conduct from the majority of voices. It, racism, became less and less accepted due to the majority of voices.
                        Like OTF. It's not acceptable on here, racism, homophobia, people are told instantly. This message board 30 years ago might not have been the same at all in that regard. I'm not saying that some of the members would have been racists or homophobic back then, but they might not have voiced their stance as fast back then. That's how it was back then, them times. We voice our opinion much more than we did back then. That's what's changed. We've become more brave, we've become educated about the world outside our bubble which is our own nation. There's your reason for racism, or homophobia, or beating women, or you name it not acceptable now. One of the reasons.

                        Yes, we're a bit ancient in Croatia when it comes to dealing with racist abuse on the stands. But it's quite a lot to do with us still growing as a nation and trying to leave the oppressed past behind. You have to think about that, when you have been oppressed, under a communist regime or whatever, it takes some time, two generations at least before things become normal. Some of the people are frustrated due to the past and that frustration is expressed through vile and nasty behaviour by some. It's not at all an excuse, it's a fact. Unfortunately that's how people deal with things sometime, they go from controlled without much freedom, to freedom, to nothing in their pocket, to hate.

                        I've seen the documentary which this thread is about. It's insulting and so missing the point with why racism in eastern Europe exists. Give us some time to catch up as a nation. Give us some time to let go of the ghosts of past, time-wise we've barely crossed the corner where we were treated like shit because of what we are, we were abused by racists in a sense. It takes time to heal, and racism in my part of the world, the way I see Croats act the cunts, it's like when you're in pain somewhere on your body then you stick your fingernail, thrust it almost through your skin on your hand to not feel that first pain. You stupidly inflict pain on a group of people because of your own pain.
                        That doesn't mean we should not be pulled up on being racist. We should, every fucking time.

                        The documentary is pure shite!

                        Comment


                          #87
                          Last night's Panorama

                          I've seen the documentary which this thread is about. It's insulting and so missing the point with why racism in eastern Europe exists.
                          The documentary is what it is. I don't think it attempts to explain why racism in Eastern Europe exists, it just shows that it does. Obviously that's upset people in Eastern Europe, as you'd expect.

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