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    #26
    Last night's Panorama

    szczeweeeeeeeee wrote:
    Football supporting is still very much a white dominated past-time in the whole of Europe and even though great work is done in the UK to tackle the problem, there is still a problem.
    Oh don't get me wrong, it's far from perfect in the UK.

    The main difference between the incident Paul S reported and the one shown on Panorama is the reaction of the crowd and the authorities, though. I'd have some sympathy with the view that the situation in the Ukraine isn't so different from what was going on in the UK in the 80s if there was actually any effort made to get rid of that kind of behaviour, but the fact that everyone just seems to shrug their shoulders is fairly worrying.

    (Also I can't spell steward, apparently).

    Comment


      #27
      Last night's Panorama

      In the UK, most asians don't go to watch their local football team because the local community who watch football don't make them feel welcome, despite huge efforts on the part of many clubs.
      That's true but you have to factor in the cost too. Going to see eg West Ham is too expensive for most local Asians.

      Comment


        #28
        Last night's Panorama

        http://sportwitness.ning.com/forum/topics/english-tackle-racism-surrounding-euro-2012-annie-eaves

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          #29
          Last night's Panorama

          Calvert W. McCutcheon wrote:
          It's utterly mind-blowing, this Eastern European Nazi-loving thing.
          The grandparents of this utter scum did most of the fighting and dying in WWII, battled those fucking savages to a standstill and chased their heinous asses all the way back to Berlin.
          The grandparents must be so proud.

          Despair.
          There were some pro-Nazi Ukrainian partisans in WWII, sadly, and some of them killed Jews (e.g. 'Ivan The Terrible' at Treblinka). That's not to say that all the current scum are their grandkids.

          Comment


            #30
            Last night's Panorama

            The thing I can't get my head around with this eastern european nazism thing is that the whole philosophy was incredibly racist towards the people of eastern europe. They were basically seen as monkeys.

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              #31
              Last night's Panorama

              I saw that Eaves article and did wonder why she repeated "English" rather than "English press" over and over. There are plenty of us here that are obviously as appalled as anyone by the likes of the Daily Mail. Pretty half-witted to judge a whole nation by the output of its tabloid press.

              (A lot of her other arguments in that were pretty weak too - I'd have commented but they can get to fuck if they think I'm registering with them for the privilege)

              Comment


                #32
                Last night's Panorama

                Uncle Toni wrote:
                http://sportwitness.ning.com/forum/topics/english-tackle-racism-surrounding-euro-2012-annie-eaves
                I agree with all of that piece. I think you really need to be on the outside looking in to see how moral superiority by any nation can sometimes be so annoying and hypocritical. Panorama were looking for a story and got one, they do it before every football tournament, Millwall fell foul before 2004, I seem to remember.

                I've got a couple of colleagues who worked in Kiev and loved the place, but not the weather. They both complained about racism in Lisbon when they arrived and I personally think Lisbon is quite a tolerant city (although far from anywhere near acceptable).

                It's interesting that when the journalist visited the ultra's bar, with all the nazi memorabilia, the bar was quite secret, hidden away in a market. Which again suggests racism is despised by the majority of ordinary Ukranians. That's why Sol Campbell's remarks are poorly judged, if not downright vile.

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                  #33
                  Last night's Panorama

                  I think Campbell's remarks are fair enough. I mean seriously, if people in Ukrainian stadia are getting completely battered for their skin colour and nobody is doing anything, then he has a point...

                  My favourite thing about the Ukrainian ultras bar was their large collection of England flags. Presumably gotten on the swap from like-minded England fans.

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                    #34
                    Last night's Panorama

                    Yeah right. Like they got all their celtic crosses from the Blue Shirts.

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                      #35
                      Last night's Panorama

                      Don't be silly, they don't have a time machine. Or do they...

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                        #36
                        Last night's Panorama

                        I assume that the morons will be excluded by UEFA's ticket allocation and pricing policy anyway, even if that leaves many stadia half-full (or less).

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                          #37
                          Last night's Panorama

                          And outside the stadium?

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                            #38
                            Last night's Panorama

                            If you tell them you know me - you're safe. But seriously you ll be fine trust me.

                            Comment


                              #39
                              Last night's Panorama

                              oh and stadia will be full, at least in Poland.

                              Comment


                                #40
                                Last night's Panorama

                                I'll start off by pointing out that I've never been to Poland or the Ukraine to watch football and only have my "knowledge" from various magazines and German Ultra fanzines.

                                I think the pictures speak for themselves and it's not really new news. The programm might have been better without the feeling of it being some adventure story, but it does give a good look at something most people will not know about. I wouldn't be to worried about traveling, but I would be carefull. Then again I don't know how I'd feel if I weren't white. It makes me sick to see those images.

                                It doesn't only exist in Poland and the Ukraine. This season a large section of Dynamo Dresden fans chanted "Eintracht Frankfurt: Juden, Juden Juden" and "You're nothing but Kebabsellers". At least the Frankfurt fans weren't having any of it. The real scandal is that Frankfurt were fined because of a banner showing the bombed out Dresden skyline and nothing was done about Dresdens rascist and anti-semetic chanting.

                                Comment


                                  #41
                                  Last night's Panorama

                                  A colleague of mine who grew up in the DDR said Dresden was known as the valley of the ignorant, because people couldn't receive West-German TV signals there due to the local geography.

                                  Comment


                                    #42
                                    Last night's Panorama

                                    Bryaniesta wrote:
                                    A colleague of mine who grew up in the DDR said Dresden was known as the valley of the ignorant, because people couldn't receive West-German TV signals there due to the local geography.
                                    Sounds about right to me.

                                    Comment


                                      #43
                                      Last night's Panorama

                                      Why is it harder to understand Nazis in eastern Europe, than it is UK Nazis?
                                      To me, it's almost more strange the other way around.
                                      I'm sure you know the history of former Yugoslavia and its break-up.
                                      Ad hoc has done some great informative posts on here about the demographics of Romania
                                      Soviet Union isn't that far back in history, with probably hundreds of nationalities bundled together during that time and just because there's an independent nation of Ukraine, it doesn't mean there's still not nationalities bundled together.

                                      Someone up-thread mentioned that the grandparents of these idiots fought off the Nazis in WWII. That's a bit lazy, to be honest. How many of these grandparents do you think were volunteers? Not that I'm saying the grandparents would have chosen to fight on the Nazi side if they were given the choice, but it's far more complicated than making an assumption like that.

                                      My grandfather lived in former Yugoslavia door-to-door with one brother in a house to the west and one to the east. He was in his 20's during WWII when one day a recruit officer paid his brother on the west side a visit, randomly taking in new recruits, by force, for the axis army. His brother had just had a child, so my grandfather offered to take his place instead which the officer agreed to. The other younger brother was so devastated, furious and torn over this, he ran off and joined the Ustasja.
                                      I visited the brother who joined Ustasja a few times. Rarely was it mentioned amongst my family, and never with any sort of pride. It was a half-whispered sort of awkward fact sometimes briefly brought up, more as a warning of a topic to stay off than an incentive to go visit him. He, himself, would mention it occasionally, but that was due to a naive notion that it would impress, that all Croats living abroad at the time saw Ustasja as some sort of, maybe not role models but one of the things to lean on in the struggle for an independent Croatian nation.

                                      It was crazy times, WWII, with a lot of confusion and not much peaceful space to make rational and normal choices. In the end people are no different from rats when trapped in a fire. Most start to run over one another trying to save themselves. When you start to run out of choices or when choices are forced upon you, the choices can seem to be very intentionally evil or incomprehensible.
                                      It's like that terrible picture from the World Trade Centre when a man throws himself out the window. He is stuck on a floor at the top of the building and either he burns to death or he throws himself to a certain death. Either way he's fucked. He threw himself and I don't think he sat back and thought it through much. It was an act of panic. Most people you see walking down a street in a group wearing swastikas and making Nazi salutes are in a slow state of panic. At least that's my belief.

                                      No, it's not a bit lazy, it's quite lazy to bring up who the grandparents fought off.
                                      Of course it's deranged to wear a swastika and make Nazi salutes, but it's far more complicated than to state "what a bunch of racist cunts"
                                      Maybe they've been indoctrinated since early childhood who to hate and why, maybe their Ukrainian grandparent was treated like an animal in the army during WWII by Russian communist officers, the grandparent taught the whole family how they're Ukrainian and how to beware of everybody who is not, which lead to hate towards everybody who is not, especially those most different. Had my grandfathers brother been killed by communists, maybe I'd be walking around today being a racist cunt calling myself an Ustasja.

                                      It's a lazy, deranged counter-reaction to something which sometimes goes back generations, generations living under what they feel are highly unjust circumstances. I see these counter-reactions daily. If Nazism is a chalice of poison, I see drops daily. People wearing Che Guevara T-shirts, people calling themselves communists, with pride. It's not even close to Nazi salutes, but to me it's the same lazy direction. It's far more often a counter-reaction to something they don't like, than a thoroughly thought through rational choice of something they truly believe in, at least among people which I've met it's far more often than not firmly attached towards an antipode.

                                      I'm not defending people in Ukraine doing Nazi salutes, but it's more understandable (as in "how come?", not as "it's more OK") to me how it exists in the complex demographical environments and with the history of eastern Europe, than in Sussex.
                                      Just look at Bosnia.

                                      Comment


                                        #44
                                        Last night's Panorama

                                        It's interesting that when the journalist visited the ultra's bar, with all the nazi memorabilia, the bar was quite secret, hidden away in a market. Which again suggests racism is despised by the majority of ordinary Ukranians. That's why Sol Campbell's remarks are poorly judged, if not downright vile.
                                        How does that work, pray tell? Which of Campbell's remarks in particular was 'downright vile'?

                                        Comment


                                          #45
                                          Last night's Panorama

                                          Someone up-thread mentioned that the grandparents of these idiots fought off the Nazis in WWII. That's a bit lazy, to be honest.
                                          Yeah, maybe, but the point still stands that the Nazis turned these countries, and in particular Poland, into mass graveyards for not only Jews but for thousands of Polish gentiles too. Poland will forever be associated with the results of taking racism to it's inevitable conclusion and it seems that these cunts (and they are cunts, vicious brainless Nazi cunts - there are no excuses) are proud of that. Subsequent Soviet oppression must have been quite something for it to lead to a yearning for the good old Nazi days.

                                          Comment


                                            #46
                                            Last night's Panorama

                                            Calvert W. McCutcheon wrote:
                                            Someone up-thread mentioned that the grandparents of these idiots fought off the Nazis in WWII. That's a bit lazy, to be honest.
                                            Yeah, maybe, but the point still stands that the Nazis turned these countries, and in particular Poland, into mass graveyards for not only Jews but for thousands of Polish gentiles too. Poland will forever be associated with the results of taking racism to it's inevitable conclusion and it seems that these cunts (and they are cunts, vicious brainless Nazi cunts - there are no excuses) are proud of that. Subsequent Soviet oppression must have been quite something for it to lead to a yearning for the good old Nazi days.
                                            If we're going to start comparing Nazi Germany with Soviet era communism we can go on forever. That's not something I really intended to. The comparison is irrelevant, really.
                                            If you ask me, people who march in a parade promoting fascism and chanting how no more immigrants should be allowed, not the likes of Hitler or that bloke killing lots of people in Norway, your next-door Joe, if you asked me to make a chart of him, to distribute 100% between Evil and Brainless, I'd put most of the 100% under Brainless.

                                            Croatian Bad Blue Boys, when they make a human swastika on the stands of Livorno stadium during a game against Italy, they're not Nazi's. They're lazy pricks who don't want to work, half-arsed criminals touring with the club, stealing and robbing for booze, drugs and tickets. Had they been born in Livorno they might as well have done the same but sporting a Stalin secret police tattoo.
                                            They don't give a flying fuck about the history behind it all. They just use something which they know disgusts people to stand out and to be both feared and respected. It's a badge for them, a flag, something they can gather under. And something which they can simply use to make them seem like there's a higher cause behind their way of life, something beyond them being lazy fuckmuppets who just don't want to live a normal life but want to party all day long, smoke their weed and be a bloody cockroach.

                                            Comment


                                              #47
                                              Last night's Panorama

                                              Calvert, look, I basically agree with you here.

                                              Comment


                                                #48
                                                Last night's Panorama

                                                They don't give a flying fuck about the history behind it all. They just use something which they know disgusts people to stand out and to be both feared and respected. It's a badge for them, a flag, something they can gather under. And something which they can simply use to make them seem like there's a higher cause behind their way of life, something beyond them being lazy fuckmuppets who just don't want to live a normal life but want to party all day long, smoke their weed and be a bloody cockroach
                                                A sentiment shared,I'm sure, by many German people abhorred by the antics of the S.A. in the 1920's.
                                                I think we're letting them off the hook a bit here.

                                                Comment


                                                  #49
                                                  Last night's Panorama

                                                  Maybe. But for instance, the way I feel about Croats who openly call themselves Ustasja, I don't want to give them that.
                                                  Lord knows I've met plenty of people who pound their chest with a clinched fist and claim that they're Ustasja. I could start to argue with them and a few times I have, that first off they can not be Ustasja because it's a thing of the past. They can be Ustasja about as much as Di Canio can be a praetorian guard under emperor Nero. Second I can argue, which I also have, that it's an idiotic thing to be proud of, the Ustasja. It was, out of several things, a desperate path taken to ensure an independent Croatian nation, but it was a quisling act, quisling towards everything our Croatian mothers ever taught us.

                                                  I can enter arguments like that, but it's somehow admitting that they have some sort of intelligence and knowledge when it comes to that specific bit of Croatian history. If they had the intelligence and knowledge they wouldn't be mentioning Ustasja with pride to begin with, so it leaves me with the only rational option. That they're brainless twats not worthy to be pulled up on the subject of ustasja, but rather be pulled up on the subject of why they're brainwashed morons without any clue and why there's a pointless spasm of shite flowing about behind their forehead.
                                                  If I tell them I don't want to talk to them because they call themselves Ustasja, I'm giving them the Ustasja bit. They can't have it.
                                                  I tell them I don't want to talk to them because I'd rather talk to myself while high on peyote and chewing manure as far intelligent exchange goes, than to talk to someone displaying that low level of brain cells aimlessly knocking about between the ears.
                                                  Ustasja "at least" had an agenda and acted upon it. Fucked in the head as they might have been.
                                                  These village idiots are "only" fucked in the head.
                                                  Ustasja were dangerous on a national level.
                                                  I don't want to give these muppets even a hint of I thinking that they have anywhere near that sort of "esteem" in my mind.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #50
                                                    Last night's Panorama

                                                    We seem to be differing only on how seriously we take these cunts, PPV.
                                                    If they want to play big boys' games then I think we should take them at their word and treat them accordingly.
                                                    Imprisonment for any sort of of Nazi imagery or displays of Nazi behaviour.
                                                    Matches abandoned and clubs closed down until it stops.
                                                    No one wants to do anything meaningful about it, though.
                                                    Particularly UEFA

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