Broken & Late Ltd: Britain's Railways

[Kevin S]

Broken & Late Ltd: Britain's Railways

Guy Profumeau wrote:

Have any northern correspondents seen a change in service since Arriva took over?

Not noticeably.

And as I'm based in Sheffield, the idea of services "run" out of either Manchester or Leeds doesn't inspire me to have a great deal of faith in the future of services here.

Northern services are:

East - stopping service to Donny (and semi-fast to Hull and Brid)
North - stopping to Leeds via Barnsley (and semi-fast from Nottingham) or via Rotherham and Dearne Valley
South - express to Nottingham (from Leeds)
West - slow line via Hope Valley and New Mills to Manchester

Of these, only the Nottingham - Leeds and Hull - Sheffield have decent coaching stock; claiming they "plan" to replace the Pacers is a nonsense - this was a condition of the franchise and/or everyone had to commit to this, or they knew they wouldn't get the gig.

Don't get the last bit. They have to replace pacers, or they don't?

They have to.

(Whether it was specified in the contract - and I think it was - everyone bidding for it did; as the incumbents Serco/Abelio, IIRC, had announced they were intending to replace them by 2020 anyway if they'd won again)

Yes, Pacers can't run after 31 December 2019 as they don't meet rail vehicle accessibility requirements.

Shite as they may be, it's pretty amazing that BREL knocked out nearly a hundred of the things in a couple of years, considering how long it's taking to supply the replacements.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Broken & Late Ltd: Britain's Railways

So they do plan to replace pacers?

[Guy Profumo]

Broken & Late Ltd: Britain's Railways

Tubby Isaacs wrote: So they do plan to replace pacers?

Yes.

The things that were brought in as an emergency stop-gap to replace the 30-year old DMUs in the 80s, and are now going to be older than the stock they (or their early models) replaced by the time they're gone.

A result of not enforcing the change on the TOCS, and/or selling them off in the first place.

[Kevin S]

Broken & Late Ltd: Britain's Railways

Tubby Isaacs wrote: So they do plan to replace pacers?

Apologies for talking across you two but I think Guy was making the point that they should not claim *credit* for planning to replace the Pacers when it is just something any TOC would have been legally obliged to do anyway.

Indeed, as he says, it *should* have been done years ago.

[Gangster Octopus]

Broken & Late Ltd: Britain's Railways


When are they going to get to the firework factory?

[Tubby Isaacs]

Broken & Late Ltd: Britain's Railways

Ah cheers, see what Guy meant.

[Moonlight Shadow]

Broken & Late Ltd: Britain's Railways

Not noticed any difference, service still very reliable, early arrival last two mornings in fact (electric,Lime St to Victoria line), bit concerned about track between Patricroft and Newton, seems to degrade fast (subsidence issues plague nearby M62) and it rattles a fair bit. That said, my service was cancelled one afternoon last week and I took a detour via Wigan to end up in St Helens Central after changing (Wallgate and North Western are like the Dundee football grounds), no hassle from station guards when I explained issue

[Guy Profumo]

Broken & Late Ltd: Britain's Railways

Kevchenkeau wrote:

So they do plan to replace pacers?

Apologies for talking across you two but I think Guy was making the point that they should not claim *credit* for planning to replace the Pacers when it is just something any TOC would have been legally obliged to do anyway.

Indeed, as he says, it *should* have been done years ago.

Yep. They are stuck with what they've inherited, but it's a bit rich to claim they'll sweep away the class 14x's, when it's not their decision.

[Crusoe]

Broken & Late Ltd: Britain's Railways

I had genuinely no idea that pacers are basically buses stuck on rails (until I read this).

[SouthdownRebel]

Broken & Late Ltd: Britain's Railways

BBC4 is showing something called 'Trainspotting Live', which appears to be a remake of Springwatch with added anoraks. Tonight's is episode 2 of 3 (I didn't see the first one), and it's hideous.

[Snake Plissken]

Broken & Late Ltd: Britain's Railways

First one was worse. Dick Strawbridge (?) has got all the misplaced enthusiasm of a Saturday morning children TVs presenter.

"Will we see a Class 37 this evening?"
"Dunno. You're the BBC. It is a modern, planned railway system Why not ring someone up and ask?"

[SouthdownRebel]

Broken & Late Ltd: Britain's Railways

And the show caused a furore for its use of older footage as well.

[Diable Rouge]

Broken & Late Ltd: Britain's Railways

The only positive is a tie-in showing of The Titfield Thunderbolt at nine.

[ursus arctos]

Broken & Late Ltd: Britain's Railways

The Sun will never miss a chance to bash the Beeb

[Lang Spoon]

Broken & Late Ltd: Britain's Railways

Does the RMT have a legit grievance with Scotrail (and Southern?) over driver only commuting trains? It does seem cost cutting at the expense of safety, but I really have no idea. Is it standard practice in other states?

[SouthdownRebel]

Broken & Late Ltd: Britain's Railways

I guess it depends how define 'legit'. I think it's down to a number of things. There are genuine concerns over the safety aspect, which were heightened by a recent story of a woman who was dragged quite a distance down a platform by a driver-only train.

She had stuck her hand in the closing doors, expecting them to open again. They didn't, because her hand being trapped in them wasn't enough to trigger the sensors, and the driver didn't notice it on the CCTV.

Drivers themselves have refused to operate without a guard on Gatwick Express services (I think it was) due to the length of the trains. With the overcrowding currently endemic on the Southern network, to reduce the number of people responsible for the safety of the train does seem a pretty daft move.

But it's also fair to say that the RMT are also fighting against a more general sense that the government is trying to cut jobs by stealth, or will do so more openly in future. If you work as a guard at the moment, the loss of your job is an equally legitimate concern, surely?

[Lang Spoon]

Broken & Late Ltd: Britain's Railways

Of course. But some jobs do become extinct through technology (like planned driverless metros in Glasgow and London). The example above though shows the technology certainly isn't there for guardless trains yet. Somehow I doubt Abellio are doing the same thing in Holland as they are in Scotland.

[Exiled off Main Street]

Broken & Late Ltd: Britain's Railways

caja-dglh wrote: This thread is brilliant. If only we could attract some East Coast US equivalents to explain what Metro-North, LIRR and others are thinking I would be happy as a pig in shit.

Love this thread.

I took a train into Boston everyday for work for a couple of years - but the length of time it took to go so few miles drove me bonkers, so I switched to a (slow moving) bus. I do take Amtrak to NYC and DC at least once a year - but I can't afford seats for the whole family to travel on the "high speed - cough" Acela trains. So we take the regular old, prone to crashing, East Coast rolling stock. I do take the Downeaster up to Maine on weekends. A lovely trip, that again, takes twice as long as it would, if it were a euro train. Sadly I'm not clued up on train terminology on equipment etc. so can't contribute that way.

On school holidays, with my two younger brothers in tow, I used to take the 'Harwich Boat Train' from Liverpool to Downham Market back in the 70's - change in Manchester (where it started as the Harwich train), a slow crawl across the Moors & then down to change again in Ely. I was 14.

[Big Boobs and FIRE!]

Broken & Late Ltd: Britain's Railways

Lang Spoon wrote: Of course. But some jobs do become extinct through technology (like planned driverless metros in Glasgow and London). The example above though shows the technology certainly isn't there for guardless trains yet. Somehow I doubt Abellio are doing the same thing in Holland as they are in Scotland.

Driver only operation has been in place since the 1980s on BR. Just under half of passengers carried on the Uk rail network each day, do so on driver only trains. The Underground has been driver only since the 1960s.

There is an extremely lazy story that keeps getting trotted out of a trap and drag at Hayes and Harlington, where an individual is alleged to have got their hand caught in the train door, the RAIB investigation found the driver was using their mobile and has since been sacked. However, the incident happened on a Saturday afternoon. By 0900 on the Monday, the company involved had received a solicitors letter informing of intent to claim for the injury. The RAIB report talked to other operators, and found out there was a recent spate of elderly women claiming to have had their hand trapped in doors, and the train companies involved all immediately getting the identical letter.

The two incidents of trap and drags that have resulted in fatalities in the last five years, have both involved trains with guards. The Merseyrail incident, the guard watched it happen.

[Lang Spoon]

Broken & Late Ltd: Britain's Railways

Thanks, I'm a wee bit more sus of RMT with their Brexit shite as well. Is there any type of journey in the UK where having a guard is for the best?

[Logan Mountstuart]

Broken & Late Ltd: Britain's Railways

As a boy, I could never have even dreamed that fudging would make the front page of The Sun.

[Big Boobs and FIRE!]

Broken & Late Ltd: Britain's Railways

Lang Spoon wrote: Thanks, I'm a wee bit more sus of RMT with their Brexit shite as well. Is there any type of journey in the UK where having a guard is for the best?

A guard in the traditional sense of having joint safety reaponsibilities and control of the door, then no, it is an outdated role.

Guards used to be required for slam door stock as they would shut the doors, then could have their head out of the window watching the train out. With modern stock, the doors are automated so all close with the push of a button. The guard cannot see anything from then on as there are no opening windows. However, the driver has a large bank of cctv screens, either on the platform or actually in the cab. They can see if anyone is trapped.

But should there be a second member of staff on the train, definitely. Relinquished of unecesary door or safety critical duties, then they can concentrate on customer assistance and revenue protection. This means more customer friendly staff can be employed. It also means on the odd occassion that the member of staff is not available, the train can still operate.

The modern railway is set up for drivers to operate doors so it is safer for them to do it. Add to that the most attentinlve on train staff are those that dont have door or safety requirements, and it is a no brainer as to what should be future policy.

[jwdd27]

Broken & Late Ltd: Britain's Railways

Lang Spoon wrote: Thanks, I'm a wee bit more sus of RMT with their Brexit shite as well. Is there any type of journey in the UK where having a guard is for the best?

Definitely needed where there are request stops on the line eg the Cambrian Coast line to Pwllheli, where about half the stops are requests (and are reasonably well used). The guards on these trains were excellent, looking after tourists' needs as well as chatting to their regular locals.

I was again very impressed with Arriva Trains Wales and the service they deliver, although it is perhaps easy for them where I was as they don't really cross over with any other train companies, and the single tracks make it simple to plan routes.

And I guess any train company looks good compared to Transpennine Express.

[Guy Profumo]

Broken & Late Ltd: Britain's Railways

Claire Perry "falls on her sword" after all…

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36805973

[Tubby Isaacs]

Broken & Late Ltd: Britain's Railways

Rail Magazine will be unhappy.