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Broken & Late Ltd: Britain's Railways

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    Originally posted by Seven Saxon Kings View Post
    If you live centrally it might make less sense time-wise but if you live in the suburbs or outside of London and can get to an airport quicker than you can get to Kings Cross then it's the only way to make it work to go up and back in a day. It's generally cheaper too, considerably so if it means you're saving on the cost of a hotel.
    HS2's got the extra London stop compared with now, Old Oak Common, which is on Crossrail and near Heathrow. But sure, there will be people for whom flying from Gatwick or Stansted are more convenient.

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      Originally posted by Fussbudget View Post
      Fair enough, thanks for the replies folks. Presumably HS2 won't make a difference there.
      Why not? Why won't people want to travel on a new railway? As Blameless says, the journey isn't very appetizing at the moment.

      You can factor in the chance to do work on the train with HS2 as well.

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        Originally posted by Walt Flanagans Dog View Post
        Plus the vulnerability of the network to any disruption, and the consequences. I travelled from Lancaster to London recently and it took over six hours - the initial delay caused by a person being hit by a train (I know) having a ripple effect which resulted in the train being stationary near (but not near enough to) Euston due to all the tracks being occupied by trains which couldn't move out of Euston because the crews needed to operate them couldn't get there in time because their southbound trains were cancelled or delayed (partly because they couldn't get into Euston because..... etc etc). Since then I've declined two requests to go to London for meetings and done them by videoconference instead, but every week brings a similar tale from colleagues - journey times of 7-8 hours between Cumbria and London.
        Where you joining the mainline? HS2 will be much more reliable than the WCML. Carlisle to London 2h 33, without any of the extra stuff that's been suggested for the mainline North of HS2.

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          I met ex-boss Natalie Bennett recently in Hednesford (ex pit town in Staffs)- we were chatting up locals before a (won) by-election. She and a passenger drove from Sheffield...Green Party oppo to HS2 is based on, broadly the cost of the unnecessary infrastructure on a small island outweighing the benefit to business travellers to and from Northern England. That said, much as I enjoy French TGV I might think otherwise if living between Paris and Lyon with cuts to other services. FB will know better than I.

          Anyone needing to travel at same day notice from Brum to Glasgow need pay 'only' £46 one way- provided they buy a ticket to Belfast...

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            Originally posted by My Name Is Ian View Post
            On top of that, the attitude of the staff really, really, really stank (understandable, because they must get shat on all day, but that doesn;t change the fact that they're the public face of the company), and every time I tweeted about it I got an identical automated reply from their Twitter account advising me to claim the money back. I kept giving them further chances, but screw it. Southern Rail just aren't worth the effort and annoyance. I'll do everything I can to avoid them from now on, which is a shame, because I really love travelling by train when it doesn't turn my blood to the consistency of Tizer.
            Similarly on the day I describe above, Virgin Trains went into hiding on Twitter, gave out no information for several hours, then confused things by tweeting that anyone with tickets to travel that day (a Sunday) could use them on the Monday, then back tracking by saying but only in off peak times. And the same attitude of, well you can claim the money back so stop complaining - the assumption that people just cared about the money, rather than being at the wrong end of the country with no way of making it to work or university the next day.

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              If lots of people are flying from one part of the island to the other, it can't be that small.

              What's her solution to capacity on the mainlines? Not just inter city, commuting capacity too?

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                Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                Where you joining the mainline? HS2 will be much more reliable than the WCML. Carlisle to London 2h 33, without any of the extra stuff that's been suggested for the mainline North of HS2.
                Carlisle usually, but some colleagues use Penrith or Oxenholme. This is the point though, when it works it works fine, 3hrs 15 between Carlisle and London is good enough for me. It's the network's vulnerability to disruption that is causing the grief - some of it is physical (over a 400 mile length through a variety of landscapes, a lot can go wrong) but some is process driven, like the example above where the problems caused by crews being out of place quickly spiraled and paralysed the system.

                I'm not opposed to HS2 by the way.

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                  Here's Jenny Jones making a fool of herself too.

                  https://jennyjones.org/2017/12/05/sa...lley-from-hs2/

                  HS2 is a horror. It’s a railway that is far too expensive for the gain of 20mins reduction time in travel for a few business people and by-passes a lot of communities in desperate need of local rail services.
                  Reduction of 20 minutes, where to where? Try 61 minutes quicker for Birmingham to Leeds, or 47 minutes quicker Birmingham to Manchester. Aren't these the sort of cities that need much better connections? Why is it only going to have "business people" on it? And "by-passing" communities is kind of the point of fast trains. The existing ones do too. What's she suggesting, making these fast trains stop at a load more stations?

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                    Originally posted by Walt Flanagans Dog View Post
                    Carlisle usually, but some colleagues use Penrith or Oxenholme. This is the point though, when it works it works fine, 3hrs 15 between Carlisle and London is good enough for me. It's the network's vulnerability to disruption that is causing the grief - some of it is physical (over a 400 mile length through a variety of landscapes, a lot can go wrong) but some is process driven, like the example above where the problems caused by crews being out of place quickly spiraled and paralysed the system.

                    I'm not opposed to HS2 by the way.
                    The process stuff sounds absolutely ridiculous. Aside from weather, the busy-ness of the line makes it vulnerable to having delays that knock on.

                    Comment


                      It's a fair question. Many in London don't give rail travel a first thought. Edinburgh's a long way away, innit?
                      Huh. I wouldn't dream of flying, myself. But then, I really, really hate flying.

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                        Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                        If lots of people are flying from one part of the island to the other, it can't be that small
                        Point taken. Do you have a breakdown of how many of the flyers from Scotland/ Northern England are connecting internationally in London?

                        As above, I could commute for a day in Glasgow by train arriving about 1030. And just possible from London.

                        Size matters also when you consider squeezing new lines etc in. HS2 will be a direct blight for many in the midlands and prob also cut their services, as you suggested re coventry above

                        What's her solution to capacity on the mainlines? Not just inter city, commuting capacity too?
                        Short and mid term I think the priority is commuter lines out of London up to MK and Stevenage

                        Jenny Jones like you is worried that a HS2 line to Brum will mean fewer services thru Coventry. Our supermayor Andy Street is getting stick on this from the locals
                        Last edited by Duncan Gardner; 14-12-2017, 14:41.

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                          Originally posted by Duncan Gardner View Post
                          Point taken. Do you have a breakdown of how many of the flyers from Scotland/ Northern England are connecting internationally in London?

                          As above, I could commute for a day in Glasgow by train arriving about 1030. And just possible from London.

                          Size matters also when you consider squeezing new lines etc in. HS2 will be a direct blight for many in the midlands and prob also cut their services, as you suggested re coventry above



                          Short and mid term I think the priority is commuter lines out of London up to MK and Stevenage
                          I don't think you can get more commuter trains in up to MK without building a new line. They're certainly busy at the moment.

                          Coventry is a quite a good illustration of the issues around HS2. You often hear from opponents that "it's not all about fast journeys into London", there needs to be more local services, better connections to other "provincial cities" etc. Well, Coventry will (by having fast trains taken off the line) likely have better local services. And it'll get faster journey times to the main destinations North of Birmingham (see those journey times above). But Coventry is very clear that it's losing out, because of the London problem. So we can infer that these fast connections there do matter, a lot.

                          Stafford is being worked up into a major HS2 stop. I think that's a good thing, and will help Wolverhampton which was another place that was reckoned to lose out.

                          I don't know how many people flying from Scotland are just changing planes at Heathrow. But with Old Oak Common near Heathrow, you've got a decent chance of getting people to do connections to Manchester etc by train instead of by air.

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                            I'm not sure what you do about Coventry's "London problem". I suppose you need to invest in other stuff in Coventry. Or try and distract it with a culture festival.

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                              I don't think you can get more commuter trains in up to MK without building a new line. They're certainly busy at the moment.
                              Yeah, there doesn't seem to be any shortage to me, though maybe they could be quicker. It's about one train every seven minutes out of Euston around the peak, and not much less off peak.

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                                That's excellent off peak frequency. Generally, frequency of trains in the UK is comparatively good, and underappreciated.

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                                  Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                                  Why not? Why won't people want to travel on a new railway? As Blameless says, the journey isn't very appetizing at the moment.

                                  You can factor in the chance to do work on the train with HS2 as well.
                                  If people choose to fly relatively short distances instead of travelling by rail because:
                                  - they're connecting from/to another flight
                                  - they live/are going somewhere closer to an airport than to King's Cross/Euston
                                  - flying is cheaper
                                  - flying is more reliable due to poor maintenance/congestion on the rail network
                                  I don't see how HS2 is likely to affect this.

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                                    Those things will still apply in lots of cases, but HS2 shifts the time/money/risk calculation in some ways. If you live in West London (or to the West of London), there's the new station at Old Oak Common, much more convenient than going to Kings Cross/Euston, and extremely well connected. There'll be more local capacity coming into Euston/Kings Cross. And the HS2 line will be far more reliable.

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                                      Ticket prices, by the way, are (indirectly) down to the government. They want the WCML and ECML to make big surpluses and save them money. They don't have to do that. If a future Corbyn-type politician were prepared to raise taxes and have cheaper tickets, and argue that this is how you maximise the value of the capital investment, by making it affordable for more people to travel on, they could very easily. Even without renationalizing.

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                                        Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                                        I'm not sure what you do about Coventry's "London problem". I suppose you need to invest in other stuff in Coventry. Or try and distract it with a culture festivaL
                                        Heh- Bread and Circuses?

                                        Doesn't almost every town in the Midlands have this problem? Coventry isn't bothered about links to nearby Leicester for example- the line there via Nuneaton has very poor service

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                                          It's worth sticking up Old Oak Common here to see how well connected it should be.

                                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Oa...ailway_station

                                          Just the existing London Overground line calling at there brings vast numbers of people within very easy reach of HS2, via a change at Clapham Junction.

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                                            Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                                            I don't know how many people flying from Scotland are just changing planes at Heathrow. But with Old Oak Common near Heathrow, you've got a decent chance of getting people to do connections to Manchester etc by train instead of by air.
                                            Considering Manchester to Euston is a shade over 2 hours, then anyone who is still doing it by air is an idiot.

                                            I used to catch the 6.43 from Stockport and be in an office in Threadneedle Street by 9.30. Not going to do that by air.

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                                              Originally posted by Duncan Gardner View Post
                                              Heh- Bread and Circuses?

                                              Doesn't almost every town in the Midlands have this problem? Coventry isn't bothered about links to nearby Leicester for example- the line there via Nuneaton has very poor service
                                              There's the argument that Birmingham will attract business from other Midlands places, with its much improved connections. Liverpool is worried about this happening if Manchester gets HS2 trains running all the way to the centre, and Liverpool doesn't (they'll come off the line at Crewe). I don't know how true this sort of argument is, really.

                                              Coventry's strong opposition has certainly been centred around losing fast trains to London. I don't know if there's anywhere else large that has the same problem to that degree. I've seen Coventry-Leicester mentioned as being very poor now. You can certainly see Coventry's point that they'd rather money went on that.

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                                                Originally posted by Snake Plissken View Post
                                                Considering Manchester to Euston is a shade over 2 hours, then anyone who is still doing it by air is an idiot.

                                                I used to catch the 6.43 from Stockport and be in an office in Threadneedle Street by 9.30. Not going to do that by air.
                                                If you're flying to Heathrow and are going on to Manchester, I can see that the prospect of Heathrow- Euston to catch a train might not appeal.

                                                But yeah, otherwise flying doesn't make much sense.

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                                                  Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                                                  It's worth sticking up Old Oak Common here to see how well connected it should be.

                                                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Oa...ailway_station

                                                  Just the existing London Overground line calling at there brings vast numbers of people within very easy reach of HS2, via a change at Clapham Junction.
                                                  Sounds good in theory - Germany and Japan seem to do a lot more of this, i.e. a second stop on the way into/out of a city to avoid people having to converge on the centre - a London Shinjuku if you like. I just can't help but look at what we do everywhere else and think it'll end up a clusterfuck of badly organised interchanging and overcrowding, made worse by too many, badly placed branches of Pret and Costa. But I'm just grumpy about Euston really.

                                                  Comment


                                                    I've not had a Tizer in ages.

                                                    This was relevant to a post I was reading. Honest.
                                                    Last edited by EIM; 14-12-2017, 16:56.

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