Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

[MsD]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

My Name Is Ian wrote:

According to this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/dec/23/christmas-hits

It quite specifically was written as a Christmas song.

"Elvis Costello was producing us at the time, and he bet me and Jem [co-writer Jem Finer] we couldn't turn up with a Christmas record that wouldn't be slushy."

Well, quite, but not a Christmas No 1; they weren't mainstream, not writing for a general family audience. As it happens it's been high in the charts about 10 times but they couldn't have foreseen that.

[wingco]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

Just to repeat, I think that, on balance, FOTY should get a pass, though I wouldn't massively accept to a bleeping out of the f-word, given the amount of bleeping that goes on of modern music in any case. I'm no Pogues fan but I think on its own terms it's a very good song. I entirely agree with TAB's analysis of the song and don't think that Tatchell has really grasped what it's about and where it's coming from. I'm not aware of homophobic gangs taking up the chant of "you cheap, lousy faggot" as a stick with which to bully gays.

Still, there's been a tendency on this thread to resort to the word "offend", which has taken on a pejorative connotation recently. It implies a certain stuffiness, a certain self-appointed moral arbitration, a Widdecombe-ish, killjoying assumption of morally higher ground. But Pants' original post talks more about horror and upset, actual hurt. As such, I don't think the reactions of his friend should be taken lightly. As I've said before, the issue is with the way pop is delivered and disseminated; unlike other media, it's going to fall within the earshot of many, many people who had no intention or expecation of hearing it; there's also less of an assumption that pop lyrics are delivered "in character".

[Amor de Cosmos]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

I'd agree with most of that, except the last part. If we limit what we hear, or see, to the expected then we'll never be challenged. One of the great things about pop music, from the fifties on at least, is that from time to time it delivers those challenges on a large scale so we can experience them both collectively and intimately.

I feel for Pants's friend, and for Pants himself as he clearly empathises with his distress, but bowlderising or expurgating the lyrics to a song resolves nothing. The pain lies within the person not the music.

[G-Man]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

But do you see a line where some kind of censorship is apropriate? Would you give songs of racist hate speech an artistic pass?

These are genuine questions.

[anton pulisov]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

Exactly, the guy I linked to wasn't saying that the song should be banned, rather that the BBC have banned a load of other stuff but haven't banned Fairytale of New York. He was pointing out the hypocrisy, i.e. society draws the line at racist slurs, but homophobic slurs are ok. And he makes a very fair point.

The arguments I hear here are pretty much the same as Dutch people defending Dutch Santa's blackface helpers. It's not meant in that way, it's supposed to be a childrens party, etc.

[Amor de Cosmos]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

@G-Man

By all means limit distribution and availability, charge those who do so and sometimes the individual who produced the work. But the piece itself must get a pass, always. If it's deemed too hideous or repulsive for public exhibition today, it may not be tomorrow or the next day. For better or worse we're its trustees. The British Library's restricted viewing section, for example, has — stunningly executed — examples of child pornography from the nineteenth century which make most people today wince, but at one time they didn't. I wouldn't want them generally reproduced but I'm glad they can be seen somewhere for the depth of social and cultural information they contain.

Hannah Arendt's comment that people who make things never understand what they do, was said in regard to nuclear scientists but is even more true of artists. We invest the piece with meaning, the artist merely applies agency. He or she really doesn't know what we'll make of it, nor even cares perhaps. So, if someone doesn't know what they do, can they fairly be held responsible for it? I can't answer that, nor I think can anyone in truth. If we dislike something so much we want to destroy it, corrupt it, or shut it away then the only thing we can be absolutely sure of is that it has considerable power. The responsibility for controlling that power is ours, but the responsibility for its existence should not be.

[My Name Is Ian]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

I certainly think that the Pogues are being allowed a pass here because it is not believed that they *mean* the sentiments that are being expressed in the song. I'm not certain that the argument that MacGowan was a rent boy washes either, especially if the claim is being made that he was in character, in terms of the song.

Furthermore, while MsD states that it was "not a Christmas No 1", it was a Christmas No 2 single in the UK, kept off the number one spot by the Pet Shop Boys on its initial release, so I can't see exactly what the relevance of saying that "they weren't mainstream" is. I guess I'm more inclined to think, well, if I was sitting in a bar in 1987, was struggling with coming out and heard a crowd of people singing "you cheap, lousy faggot", would that have made my life easier or more difficult? No single use of a word, I would contend, would often be used as a "stick with which to bully gays", but anything that perpetuates a climate a discomfort or fear is questionable at best, I think.

I'm more inclined to think that homophobic words such as "faggot" were more socially acceptable in 1987 than they are now, and that they are not acceptable now makes us a little more civilised. I don't think that the word would have been used had the song been written in 2011.

[MsD]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

No, I said they didn't set out to write a Christmas No. 1, meaning they weren't writing for the general public and/or expecting it to be a ubiquitous top chart smash. Some people do set out to write number ones, and will either be deliberately populist or deliberately controversial.

I'm just imagining Shane "in character" as a rent boy. Hmm.

[Borracho]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

This is all a bit nuts. It's effectively saying that there should never be a homophobic character in a piece of art, because the things that he/she comes out with are inevitably going to offend somebody somewhere.

Where does this actually stop? Are we going to have to take all the uses of "faggot" out of, say, Angels In America? Or is that all right because it's a six-hour play instead of a four-minute song?

[MsD]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

See also A Streetcar Named Desire, a popular play and film in which a character refers to a homosexual as "degenerate" .. although it was written in what, the 50s. I still think it's relevant; it's clear that the character speaking, and the "degenerate" boy are locked into disgust, confusion and self-loathing, and that is the root of a great tragedy.

[wingco]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

Yes, yes, but at the risk of repeating myself, it's one thing to have characters express homophobic ideas in plays and films, where it is clear that they are not necessarily endorsed by the author, another thing to do it in the context of popular song, where that distinction isn't traditionally anything like as clear, and, moreover, are broadcast widely to unwitting audiences, in Tescos, pubs, wherever. I think the latter context warrants a level of circumspection on the part of lyric writers.

[rick derris]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

however, when asked why the pogues had such longevity, shane did once answer "because we weren't two poofs with a keyboard", referring of course to PSB keeping FONY off the number one slot

[Amor de Cosmos]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

FWIW my reading of Fairytale of New York is of an older couple living in the wreckage of their dreams and hating each other for it. Part of that dream involved coming to New York in the 50s-60s (They've got cars big as bars) and the venom they spit at each other (scumbag, faggot, slut, junk) reflect the vocabulary of the America they've never found a home in, rather than the Ireland(?) they left years before. I've always found it very sad, almost poignant. But that's just me perhaps.

[Borracho]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

wingco wrote:

Yes, yes, but at the risk of repeating myself, it's one thing to have characters express homophobic ideas in plays and films, where it is clear that they are not necessarily endorsed by the author, another thing to do it in the context of popular song, where that distinction isn't traditionally anything like as clear, and, moreover, are broadcast widely to unwitting audiences, in Tescos, pubs, wherever. I think the latter context warrants a level of circumspection on the part of lyric writers.

I appreciate the point you're making but I don't think Shane MacGowan (or any other reasonably serious artist) should have to be worrying about what the guy in the pub or the woman in Tesco thinks when he sits down to write a song. Yes, this is inevitably going to result in the occasional problem down the line, but if you're trying to create something great you simply cannot afford to be concerned about whether a certain section of it might piss off Middle Ireland (or wherever). Otherwise you're not being true to yourself. MacGowan's own background is very relevant indeed because he's the one writing the song.

Fairytale Of New York has an unusual status among rock classics in that it gets heard repeatedly every 12 months. It is not the kind of song that you might hear once and then not be exposed to again for several years -- it's in our faces and ears every Xmas. All of us have heard it umpteen times. A huge segment of the population can sing all the words from beginning to end. This massively reduces the chances of people misinterpreting the lyric. At this stage, you'd have to be either astoundingly dim or half-deaf not to realise that MacGowan and Kirsty are telling a story. (I appreciate that this is a slightly different thing from the initial scenario of a gay man hearing it Xmas after Xmas and feeling angry each time.)

Maybe it's because the Pogues are still regarded as folk heroes over here, but I've genuinely never heard a single person, gay or otherwise, object to that line.

As it happens, my brother is gay and a huge fan of the Pogues. I'll have to ask him tomorrow for his thoughts on the matter. I've a fair idea of what kind of answer I'll get though.

[MsD]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

No, it's no just you, Amor, and I'd like to see the song claimed as part of queer culture, or at least outsider culture. The iridh, pissheads, Irish pissheads, immigrants, junkie sluts.and maybe by implication former rent boys, all usually seen as "lowlife" all portrayed here with compassion, and maybe love.

I meant to post but ended up editing my previous post about "slut on junk".

[wingco]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

Well, as I said earlier, ABII, I myself wouldn't censor this song - I think its context is clear. Having the two fighting voices helps establish the "character" thing I was talking about and although I'm not sure the use of the word "faggot" is absolutely necessary to the song, like My Name Is Ian, I think it reflects a slightly more casual attitude towards its use 20-odd years ago. But it's an exceptional song in many respects.

[Amor de Cosmos]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

it's one thing to have characters express homophobic ideas in plays and films, where it is clear that they are not necessarily endorsed by the author,

How is it clear from within the performance whether that the author of a TV play, for instance, endorses or not the ideas of his characters, while a songwriter does not? Alf Garnett, for instance, drew ambiguous responses — still does I think — from audiences in spite of Johnny Speight's insistence that he was supposed to be a hateful little man. To have any credibility the character, had to be like that, otherwise he would have been an anodyne cipher. That is what the writer risks, whatever his medium, in order create something fully dimensional. To not run that risk, you're writing to order and might as well be working in public relations.

[anton pulisov]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

Analogue Bubblebath II wrote:

This is all a bit nuts. It's effectively saying that there should never be a homophobic character in a piece of art, because the things that he/she comes out with are inevitably going to offend somebody somewhere.

But the point is, should BBC Radio 1 be playing it during the middle of the day? People listening passively to the radio during the day perhaps don't have time to dissect the intricacies of this song that people have proposed on this thread.

You wouldn't turn on BBC1 at 2 pm and see Robocop or a Dylan Moran standup on TV. They could also be considered works of art.

The point is that BBC Radio 1 has censored or banned other songs with rude words or otherwise more adult content, songs which could also be considered works of art, for daytime broadcasting. Yet they have judged "cheap lousy faggot" to be OK for day time broadcasting.

And this is the hypocrisy at the heart of the matter. Either you censor everything during the day or you censor nothing. Who at the BBC is judging that fuck is not allowed during the day but that faggot (and used in a very negative connation) is. This is what the guy I linked to pointed out.

Somebody should phone up the BBC and request a Bottle of Smoke.

[jason voorhees]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

That's why there's 3 or 4 arguments going on around here, and that Bryaniesta's last point is the most relevant one.

As far as an artistic piece of work, it's obviously a masterpiece and not homophobic.

As far as being played in public as a "Have a Holly, Jolly Christmas" song, I mean part of what made it so great for me was that it was only on the Pogues Greatest Hits CD and I only had that because someone left it in my car. Over the past few years, with facebook and MySpice and all that we get "OMG this is the greatest xmas song eva LOL !" all over the place, and like ABII said it's now played out like jheri curls.

It's also anti-elderly. The wind may blow through you on the streets, but there's nothing like NYC steam heat in those Sherman tank-sized radiators for my 90-year-old auntie.

[Amor de Cosmos]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

People listening passively to the radio during the day perhaps don't have time to dissect the intricacies of this song that people have proposed on this thread.

How much time is required? About the only thing we all agree on is that it's been played repeatedly every December for the past twenty-four years, surely that should be enough.

[historyman]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

Bryaniesta wrote:

The point is that BBC Radio 1 has censored or banned other songs with rude words or otherwise more adult content, songs which could also be considered works of art, for daytime broadcasting. Yet they have judged "cheap lousy faggot" to be OK for day time broadcasting.

And this is the hypocrisy at the heart of the matter. Either you censor everything during the day or you censor nothing. Who at the BBC is judging that fuck is not allowed during the day but that faggot (and used in a very negative connation) is. This is what the guy I linked to pointed out.

This is, indeed, an intrinsic part of the problem.

I can't speak for Radio 1 but I do listen to Radio 2 a fair bit and its policy on daytime censorship is infuriatingly inconsistent and, quite frankly, all over the place.

For example - the word 'ass' is frequently edited out of songs lest some poor old dear in the Home Counties has to wipe her brow with a handkerchief, yet when Shirley Bassey did her cover version of Pink's 'Get The Party Started' the line 'You'll be kissing my ass' was left untouched.

Why? God knows, it was obviously felt that a 70 year old saying 'ass' was somehow different to a young woman's take on the word.

Neil Hannon's use of 'arse' in the song National Express is also allowed, as is 'faggot' in AFONY.

AB - maybe you could ask your brother for his take on one of the Tartan Army's staples...

[Spearmint Rhino]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

Pants wrote:

It's a fine line but surely there's a difference between Newman's satirical writing and a Christmas classic pop song?

You're assuming that The Pogues wrote it as "a Christmas classic pop song" in the first place, as opposed to just, you know, a song.

(Mind you, nobody held a gun to their head and forced them to put it out as a single in December...)

[Spearmint Rhino]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote:

The language of the male character is every bit as misogynistic as his girlfriends is homophobic but no-one complains about her being called a slut.

I can't speak for anyone else, but in my case I only figured out he was saying "slut" quite recently, so slurred is his gnarly drunken drawl.

[Spearmint Rhino]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

G.Man wrote:

Having said all that, I've never liked the Beatie Boys much after I learnt that their record company vetoed the group's first choice of title for the album that was eventually titled License To Ill. Their original title was Stop Being A Faggot.

I actually like The Beastie Boys a little bit more after reading that, but each to their own taste.

[Spearmint Rhino]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

At the Spellbound Christmas Party (my alternative 80s club night), I had the offending line scrolling on a dot matrix screen all night, having also used it in the Facebook and Twitter spam for the event. Should I feel bad for that? Not one person in our crowd, which contains a large contingent of gays, lesbians and trannies, complained. Horses for courses I guess.