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Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

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    #26
    Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

    Hmmm, good point Etienne. It's a fine line but surely there's a difference between Newman's satirical writing and a Christmas classic pop song? I cant imagine Rednecks being played at a works Christmas party and everyone happily singing along. Randy Newman is making a specific point with his writing from the points of view of a slave traders, racists, small-minded bigots; McGowan is recreating - and kind of romanticising - the street speak of (sort of) ordinary people.

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      #27
      Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

      Sean, you're missing the point by several miles. And I still have no idea what you meant by your post on the other page. Please could you explain?

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        #28
        Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

        In contrast, a pop song could come on the radio while you're in a car with friends, in the supermarket with your Nan, at a work Xmas party with colleagues. I absolutely do not want to censor art, literature, film and so on. But I think in this specific case, The Pogues could change the word and issue a statement saying why they'd done it. I don't see how that coiled be anything but a positive thing.

        But your mistake is to call it the best christmas song ever. It's not a christmas carol, it's a pogues song set at christmas. Why on earth would you change the words? It would be like me complaining about a pair of brown eyes, or rain street, because it is a negative portrayal of irish immigrants.

        If someone is offended by a FONY, they should give peter tatchell a ring and he will give them more worthy targets for their anger.

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          #29
          Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

          I'd change the words because they are causing great offence.

          Yes, it's a Pogues song, but it's ended up becoming a song that gets played a lot every Christmas. Partly because of the way the word is used in the song, partly because of the ubiquity of the song at Christmas, it is causing great offence. Why not change the word/s?

          My friend isn't offended by FONY so much as hearing the word 'faggot' sung out loud on the radio and telly. He doesn't need to call Peter Tatchell for targets worthy of his anger; he's experienced a lifetime of homophobia which I can assure you he's very angry about.

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            #30
            Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

            I get what you're saying, Pants. But your friend said "Fairytale" is homophobic. It's fair that people would respond to that, because it leads to another important point: Should the listener know what is meant by the use of the wrd "faggot". In other words, if your friend perceives the lyrics as being homphobic, but they are in fact not (which has been discussed here), is he right to feel aggrieved by them.

            I don't think there is one correct answer. The use of the word might help perpetuate and legitimise its use as an insult, one which communicates homosexuality as something demeaning and as a direct verbal assault against gays. Against that is the argument of meaning.

            I have little right to say how a homosexual person should feel when they hear the word "faggot", regardless of how it is applied. Whether that is enough to condemn the song, I don't know.

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              #31
              Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

              Having said all that, I've never liked the Beatie Boys much after I learnt that their record company vetoed the group's first choice of title for the album that was eventually titled License To Ill. Their original title was Stop Being A Faggot.

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                #32
                Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

                Pants wrote:
                Sean, you're missing the point by several miles. And I still have no idea what you meant by your post on the other page. Please could you explain?
                I'm just trying to make the point that some people will find offence whether it should be taken or not. They just hear a word and say "Ooh, you can't say that" without even establishing the context in which it was said.
                For example it is racist to say "fucking black cunt" to somebody, but not if used to explain to someone "I didn't call you a fucking black cunt, you knobhead".
                If you decribe someone as a faggot in a song then boviously it is deliberately written to offend, but if calling someone a faggot is part of the psyche of a character in a third party song, then it should be retained. Whitewashing it to kow-tow to the sensitivities of someone too dumb to work out the context in which it is used is both sad and ridiculous.

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                  #33
                  Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

                  Well put (in both posts) G-Man. That's exactly how I feel.

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                    #34
                    Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

                    I wonder if either Patti Smith or John Lennon would feel at liberty nowadays to write "Rock'n'Roll Nigger" or "Woman Is The Nigger Of The World"? Almost certainly not, I reckon. Is that because people were less censorious and uptight and had a healthier attitude towards "offence" back in the 70s? Almost certainly not, I reckon.

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                      #35
                      Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

                      Sean. Firstly, the context in which the word is used is as a hurtful insult. This context in itself reinforces that to be gay is to be something shameful.

                      Secondly, is changing the word really "whitewashing it to kow tow to the sensitivities of someone too dumb to work out the context"? Is it really "sad and ridiculous"? Or is it avoiding the potential embarrassment and great hurt of thousands of confused, victimised, bullied homosexual teenagers? Which is more important here - your sense of outrage at my suggestion or the pain felt by these kids? The fact that hearing this word in this song compounds their sense that society doesnt approve of them. As G-Man said, it's far from black and white.

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                        #36
                        Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

                        wingco wrote:
                        I wonder if either Patti Smith or John Lennon would feel at liberty nowadays to write "Rock'n'Roll Nigger" or "Woman Is The Nigger Of The World"? Almost certainly not, I reckon. Is that because people were less censorious and uptight and had a healthier attitude towards "offence" back in the 70s? Almost certainly not, I reckon.
                        Lennon shouldn't have felt at liberty even then. It's an idiotic statement.

                        But to your question, I do think that today there is a greater sensitivity towards the potential of offense being caused. The whole panic about how to refer to Christmas -- innocuous Christmas! -- is an example of that. By contrast, in the '70s Archie Bunker's atire went over the head of countless bigots and British TV delighted in the racism of Love Thy Neighbour.

                        I'm sure that Smith and Lennon raised eyebrows with their use of the N-word, but that panic about the potential to cause offense didn't exist then (or, in other words, PC had yet to go supposedly mad).

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                          #37
                          Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

                          Yeah, I suppose one of the disadvantages of the raising of PC consciousness is that others feel that it creates a universal inclination to claim similar and righteous offence at such things as, f'rinstance, FIFA's anti-poppy stance. The great thing is then, for each case to be argued on its merits.

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                            #38
                            Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

                            I do think that line in the song should be considered insulting. If it was an English band singing "cheap lousy Paddy" then all of Ireland would be up in arms.

                            In the case of Fairytale of New York, it's a clear case of people defending a song that they've grown up with and like. The song can't be wrong, because they like the song. It's some kind of psychological state of denial. It reminds me of how Dutch people can't see the problems with Santa's blackfaced helpers.

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                              #39
                              Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

                              It fair to say that in the 70s far fewer people would give a fuck if people were offended anyway, otherwise we would never have seen the likes of Jim Davidson's Chalky routines.

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                                #40
                                Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

                                The view of UK gay news on the matter.

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                                  #41
                                  Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

                                  With regard to whether they would write the same thing today, they would certainly have made the same statement, but maybe not using the word "nigger". I struggle to think of anyone in the mainstream music industy now who would write something similar.

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                                    #42
                                    Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

                                    It's unusually clear in Fairytale... that the lines are "in character", I think. They are in Money For Nothing as well, but this can easily be missed.

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                                      #43
                                      Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

                                      Can we not get this song claimed as part of queer culture?

                                      I'm not entirely joking, either.

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                                        #44
                                        Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

                                        It's also anti-elderly, "no place for the old" and all of that.

                                        in the '70s Archie Bunker's atire went over the head of countless bigots and British TV delighted in the racism of Love Thy Neighbour.

                                        I immediately thought of Archie Bunker, and how the KKK had viewing parties when he was on. The point of this being this was pretty much the moment the KKK jumped the shark as being a dangerous and powerful organization. Archie Bunker was being laughed at, not laughed with.

                                        I'm amazed that "Fairytale of New York" would be played in a public place, such as a Tescos, or on the BBC.

                                        And to be fair, Bryaniesta, that's one man who may or may not represent the views of all of the gay community.

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                                          #45
                                          Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

                                          I do think that line in the song should be considered insulting. If it was an English band singing "cheap lousy Paddy" then all of Ireland would be up in arms.

                                          but if it was the pogues, then it probably would be considered ok.

                                          In the case of Fairytale of New York, it's a clear case of people defending a song that they've grown up with and like. The song can't be wrong, because they like the song. It's some kind of psychological state of denial. It reminds me of how Dutch people can't see the problems with Santa's blackfaced helpers.

                                          I don't see that being a problem with the song here. the song is a story about two fucked up people tearing each others hair out. The language of the male character is every bit as misogynistic as his girlfriends is homophobic but no-one complains about her being called a slut.

                                          Personally I think that as a former rent boy, shane mac Gowan is allowed say what the fuck he likes about gays and prostitutes without being accused of bigotry. ultimately how many cocks do you have to suck before you can say faggot?

                                          The problem here is people like pants not really listening to the words, absentmindedly thinking that this is a christmas song, and burbling to gay people that it is the best christmas song ever because it's a bit edgy. This is on a par with burbling to germaine Greer that the Guns and Roses song "It's so easy" is the best song every written about the joys of singing.

                                          The Fairytale of New york is not a christmas song. Christmas songs are things about santa claus, and sleighbells. This starts in a drunk tank, and goes downhill from there. It is a dramatic story, about rough and unpleasant people who use with some rough and unpleasant language, and anyone with an objection should either grow a pair, or go and find a better use of their time.

                                          This song isn't a homophobic song, it's a song where an unpleasant and unsympathetic character uses a homophobic insult in response to a misogynistic insult as part of the story. Some people work too hard at being offended.

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                                            #46
                                            Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

                                            They are in Money For Nothing as well, but this can easily be missed

                                            I would have thought that the rather revolutionary video would have helped here. That and the tours with elton john

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                                              #47
                                              Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

                                              The instrumental of FONY is being used by Tesco in their Christmas ad campaign .. something that amuses me, as I was wondering if people on TalkPunk and Punks Reunited (yes, I know) would have a go about that the same way that they lay into Lydon if he does anything for commercial gain. (No, they haven't, is the answer).

                                              I agree again with TAB. The Pogues didn't sit down and plan to write a Christmas number one, not because they're anti that sort of thing, but because this wouldn't occur to them. They set out to write a song about these characters, who have ugly, blasphemous rows, but who are bound together by love/sentiment/habit/history.

                                              Some people don't like the slut word, and "slut on junk" used to stab my friend in the heart, when she was an addict (20 years clean). She wouldn't dream of changing it. It's in character, in context, as an ugly phrase.

                                              When people sing along with the song, the bit they seem to connect with is the most is "I could have been someone ... WELL SO COULD ANYONE".

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                                                #48
                                                Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

                                                The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote:
                                                I do think that line in the song should be considered insulting. If it was an English band singing "cheap lousy Paddy" then all of Ireland would be up in arms.

                                                but if it was the pogues, then it probably would be considered ok.
                                                I can think of at least six Pogues/MacGowan song which have "Paddy" in the title.

                                                A Pistol For Paddy Garcia
                                                Paddy Rolling Stone
                                                Paddy Public Enemy Number 1
                                                Poor Paddy On The Railway
                                                Paddy Whacked Radio
                                                Rock 'N' Roll Paddy

                                                They overdo it, if anything.

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                                                  #49
                                                  Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

                                                  According to this:

                                                  http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/dec/23/christmas-hits

                                                  It quite specifically was written as a Christmas song.

                                                  "Elvis Costello was producing us at the time, and he bet me and Jem [co-writer Jem Finer] we couldn't turn up with a Christmas record that wouldn't be slushy."
                                                  Funnily enough, the word jumped out at me when I happened to catch it on the television the other day. I'm not particularly offended by it myself, but I can understand entirely why others would be.

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                                                    #50
                                                    Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

                                                    See, art is supposed to offend people. To rock our world. It's what it's for. To make us angry, make us weep, piss us off, make us shed tears of joy and of rage. Then we might begin to think, to question why we have these reactions.

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