Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

[Pants]

I was watching some 'best Christmas songs ever' show on Christmas night with some gay friends. 'A Fairytale of New York' came on and I commented that it was clearly the best Christmas song of all time, by a country mile. One of my friends looked horrified and said he thought it was the worst Christmas song ever. When I asked why he said it was because of the use of the word "faggot" ("you scumbag, you maggot, you cheap lousy faggot, happy Christmas my arse, I pray god it's our last.")

We had a slightly pissed debate where I insisted that the song wasn't homophobic, it was just one of the characters in the song talking to the other character. But my friend insisted that the Kirsty McColl character was using the word "faggot" as an insult and was therefore being homophobic. And that whether it was the character, the songwriter or the song that was homophobic didn't matter - even if none of these entities were homophobic, simply using the word was extremely hurtful. Surely you wouldn't be allowed to use the word "n****r" or "Paki" in a similar context? Perhaps it's less about homophobic than simply being sympathetic to other peoples's feelings.

I disagreed with him last night, but on reflection, I think he's right. As a mixed up teenage gay kid, it must be pretty hurtful to hear the word 'faggot' used an an insult in the middle of an extremely popular singalong Christmas song. I know how I would have felt aged 17 if, for example, So Here It Is Merry Christmas had the word 'Paki' in it. I'm actually starting to think The Pogues should be asked to change the lyric.

Any thoughts?

[Purves Grundy]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

"n****r" or "Paki"

OFFS

[Borracho]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

Pants wrote:

But my friend insisted that the Kirsty McColl character was using the word "faggot" as an insult and was therefore being homophobic.

[Pants]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

What's your point, PG?

Analogue, perhaps I should have asked if the song is offensive rather than homophobic.

[Sean of the Shed]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

Where do your friends stand on Puff The Magic Dragon?

[Pants]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean, Sean. Can you explain?

[jason voorhees]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

Many covers of the song now delete the word.

I don't know of anyone that would get off on that part of the song in a wink-wink "we really hate homosexuals and now we can sing it loud," and in that sense I wouldn't say that it's homophobic because it's not meant as hateful towards a group of people. The character in the song is using the most hurtful word to the character who is causing her pain.

In that sense, it can be terribly offensive. However, it's an operatic epic of a song, with characters using real language of real people, and as hurtful as it is, it's a fictional character saying it to another and it's like saying any show or theatrical production is homophobic or racist if a word is used by a character.

[historyman]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

This was debated a few years ago, with Radio 1 originally censoring the 'f' word and then backtracking on their original decision.

BBC Radio 1 is to play the Pogues' 'Fairytale of New York' uncensored after coming under fire for cutting the word "faggot".

Controller Andy Parfitt announced the u-turn after a day of criticism from listeners, the Pogues and the mother of Kirsty MacColl, who sang on the Christmas hit.

"Radio 1 does not play homophobic lyrics or condone bullying of any kind," he explained on Tuesday evening. "It is not always easy to get this right, mindful of our responsibility to our young audience.

"The unedited version will be played from now on. While we would never condone prejudice of any kind, we know our audiences are smart enough to distinguish between maliciousness and creative freedom.

"In the context of this song, I do not feel that there is any negative intent behind the use of the words, hence the reversal of the decision."

Earlier in the day Parfitt said the track was deemed potentially offensive and cut as part of a review of catalogue songs. In its intended form McColl sings "you scumbag, you maggot, you cheap lousy faggot".

The word "slut" was also cut from a line sung by Shane MacGowan in which he calls MacColl "an old slut on junk". It will also now be restored.

[Pants]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

Hi Jason. Yeah, I think you're right. It's not homophobic, that was definitely the wrong word for me to use. But it is very hurtful. Obviously lots of songs, shows etc, from rap to The Wire to Martin Amis books to whatever use the "the real language of real people". That's life, that's art. For me, the problem is that it's such an iconic song that's become a big part of such a celebratory time of year. And now, for me, the idea of my gay friends - or anyone gay - to have to hear a word that makes them feel like shit, within the context of such a beautiful, moving and amazingly observed song seems...fucked up. Can you imagine being pissed at a Christmas party and singing the words at the top of your voice and turning round to see a
gay friend looking upset? I dunno, for me it's as if the song Auld Lang Syne had the word "Paki" in it and everyone was singing along at a New Years Eve party oblivious to me feeling like I'd been punched in the stomach.

[jason voorhees]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

You didn't use the wrong word, as you were asking a question.

You obviously have a point, but it is a standard because it's two lower class people struggling through life (if they're not already ghosts, Sinatra was swingin' and all of that,) and showing how awful relationships can be at times.

I see it as different case, because most males would identify with McGowan's character trying to woo a girl and then being chastised. In essence, we are all being called faggots.

[EIM]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

Faggot hasn't always meant homosexual, has it?

[anton pulisov]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

You are all missing the point, faggot simply means pink in Spanish.

[Borracho]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

Pants wrote:

What's your point, PG?

Analogue, perhaps I should have asked if the song is offensive rather than homophobic.

Offensiveness is in the eye of the beholder. There'll always be somebody, somewhere, who finds the most anodyne thing imaginable grossly offensive. Some neoconservative groups in the US objected to a pre-school kids' programme a while back because it depicted children helping each other and was therefore too socialist. I think it was Barney the Dinosaur or something like that.

Top of the Pops put some pressure on the Pogues and Kirsty McColl at the time, but when it came to the live performance in the studio Kirsty sang the line anyway, although -- and I remember this very clearly -- she did so in a noticeably quieter voice than the recorded version. Maybe she almost lost her nerve at the last second or something.

Ronan Keating covered Fairytale Of New York a few years ago and, true to form, changed "You cheap lousy faggot" to "You're cheap and you're haggard". This ensured that whenever the song came on the radio, people just broke their bollocks laughing at it.

Fairytale has been around for the best part of 30 years now. It gets played so much at Xmas that it earns MacGowan something like sixty grand a year (shades of Gerry Rafferty, who drank himself to death on the annual royalty cheques from Baker Street). Everyone knows it backwards. And almost no one makes the association between "you cheap lousy faggot" and actual hate speech. It would be like switching off American History X as soon as the Edward Norton character starts coming out with the Aryan Brotherhood stuff.

You have the right to find it offensive yourself, but the overall context of the song's other lyrics mean that there won't be too many people who agree with you.

[wingco]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

Very good post from Analogue there but I think Pants raises a fair misgiving. If this had been a line of dialogue in a movie or a series like The Wire, there's no way this discussion would have arisen. In that dramatic context, you can get away with all kinds of speech so long as it's properly framed, understood that it comes from the mouths of characters. That's never quite as clear in pop.

Sometimes, singers are simply delivering soliloquies in what are dramatis personae, as opposed to expressing their own thoughts, more often the power of a popular song depends on the association of the message, the narrative it delivers coming sincerely, effusively and authentically from the heart, as well as the mouth of the singer. I'm pretty clear that "Fairytale Of New York" is playing out a lyrical Punch And Judy show and, as ABII says, I think it is mostly pretty clear to a wider audience. I'd give it a pass. But if you were to push the principle a bit further, I think there might be problems.

[Borracho]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

Exactly, take any random Eminem song for example.

I can see why Pants finds the line irksome. I don't share it though. Kirsty is playing a drunken, probably ill-educated sot who hates herself and her partner, and who will say whatever it takes to hurt him. That's all it is.

[Borracho]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

Can I just add that I am heartily sick of Fairytale Of New York at this stage, and would be overjoyed if I never heard it again.

[wingco]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

Pants's interpretation of the song was the same as ours; what he's anxious about, if I read him correctly, is that others, who may not care to pay attention to The Pogues's oeuvre or even be unaware of it, might simply hear the song blared out at Tescos or wherever, and be upset by the "faggot" thing? That's another thing about pop. It's blared at you, in a way that drama, literature, etc, aren't. I haven't seen one second of Downton Abbey - I don't have to. But it'd be hard for me to similarly shut out pop, good, bad or indifferent, especially ubiquitous Christmas pop.

[MsD]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

Analogue Bubblebath II wrote:

Can I just add that I am heartily sick of Fairytale Of New York at this stage, and would be overjoyed if I never heard it again.

Not as much as my poor bff, who lived with a Pogue for eight years and is haunted by that bloody song. No ill-feeling, but it brings back a painful break-up, and there's no escaping it at this time of year.

That aside, the Pogues have never been homophobic and I agree with what you wrote above - it's in character, and very realistic IMO. Who hasn't flung terrible insults in a row? That's what makes it a row rather than a discussion of each other's shortcomings.
It wouldn't work with "you're a bore, you're untidy in the bathroom" or whatever.

[Amor de Cosmos]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

You simply can't honestly write songs — or anything else for that matter — to appease someone else's feelings. You've got to be prepared to catch the shit that comes your way, of course but, be that as it may, to create it any other way would be a major falsehood. For example Rock and Roll Nigger just wouldn't work with any other title or chorus. Does it make Patti Smith a racist? Quite the opposite. Do some people think it does? Apparently so if the comments on youtube are to be believed. Should we care? Not for a second.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

Shane MacGowan was a self confessed rent boy who turned tricks for smack as a teenager. I doubt he's too down on the gays.

Anyway, the song is a row between an aging, dying smack addict hooker, and her degenerate gambling, alcoholic scumbag boyfriend. Being able to take personal offence from the song indicates a disturbing degree of self absorbtion.

It's like criticising downfall for being an anti-semitic movie because the hitler character says some nasty things about the jews. What next? David bowie is prejudiced against drug users because of ashes to ashes?

On the other hand a fairytale of new york is about as much a christmas song as the song that beat it to number one. It just takes place at christmas, with christmas being used to signify how far the main characters had fallen.

[historyman]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

Dire Straits have, of course, been in similar controversy over their 'Money For Nothing' song.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_f...g)#Controversy

[G-Man]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

That's the least objectionable thing about that fucking horrible song.

[Pants]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

Morning all.

There's a fair amount of missing my point going on here. As I said earlier, I think the thread title was wrong. I'm 99.99999% sure that The Pogues aren't homophobic and I'm 100% sure the song's not homophobic. That's not the issue. The issue is that although it's not meant to, the song is causing great hurt and offence. Wingco seems to be the only person who's got that. As he said, there's a lot of difference between characters talking in a gritty drama TV show and characters talking in a pop song. I've sat down to watch an episode of The Wire because I want to be immersed in the world of street life and politics in Baltimore. In contrast, a pop song could come on the radio while you're in a car with friends, in the supermarket with your Nan, at a work Xmas party with colleagues. I absolutely do not want to censor art, literature, film and so on. But I think in this specific case, The Pogues could change the word and issue a statement saying why they'd done it. I don't see how that coiled be anything but a positive thing.

The other key point for me (well, my friend, but as I say, I'm starting to agree with him) is that the use of the word in the song is (as someone, msd I think, pointed out) as the greatest insult one character can think of to throw at the other. So even if the casual listener is clear that these are characters addressing each order, it comes across that the word 'faggot' is a great insult and reinforces negativity around homosexuality. That's very different to Patti Smith's use of the word 'nigger' in 'Rock n Roll Nigger'.

I dunno, it's a tricky one, but when you weigh up the pros and cons for changing the word in the song, for me the pros massively outweigh the cons. It seems a simple matter of avoiding a lot of hurt and upset vs some people not liking a new line in a pop song very much. I also think that the debate a lyric change would inspire would be a good thing.

[Etienne]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

If Fairytale of New York is problematic, then Randy Newman's oeuvre is fucked.

[Sean of the Shed]

Is 'A Fairytale of New York' homophobic?

But what else are you going to replace the word faggot with? There's very little that rhymes with maggot.
You scumbag, you maggot,
You look just like Taggart
really doesn't convey the same level of passion and anger.