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    #51
    Evra v Suárez

    Weren't we supposedly fighting fascism, i.e. racism, in WW2?

    Comment


      #52
      Evra v Suárez

      The ManUtd fan (I assume the 1878 is a clue...) takes some beating to be as racist as he can without sounding obviously so...The Wigan fan, well, he obviously has little knowledge of what horrors racism has unleashed and that it was a cornerstone of the Nazi ideology...

      Ah well...

      Comment


        #53
        Evra v Suárez

        More relevantly, Stan Collymore has made a lot of comments about racism on Twitter lately and received a lot of abuse from morons about it.
        Two slightly different issues. He would have received abuse from morons however reasonable or inflammatory his comments on the subject were, such is the way of the Internet and the stupidity of Twitter.

        As it was his comments criticising AVB for having the audacity to support and defend a player who has not been found guilty of anything thus far came with a presumptuous air of guilt on his part.

        I don't follow him on Twitter, has he come out and similarly criticised Kenny Dalglish for his unbending support of Suarez since that episode blew up? Racism may well be a growing issue again, but xenophobia in the media has always been there. More tolerance is afforded to British players and managers than their foreign counterparts.

        Comment


          #54
          Evra v Suárez

          Weren't we supposedly fighting fascism, i.e. racism, in WW2?

          well, one of the allies was forcibly transplanting ethnic minorities, and starving others. Another was rigidly segregated across large swathes of the country, and the third great power was in possession of the biggest empire the world had ever seen.

          A lot of people who went out to fight did so to create a better world, but I'm not sure that anti-racism was a powerful motivation for the governments on the allied side.

          Comment


            #55
            Evra v Suárez

            King Kenny is getting pretty cranky.

            "Most of the time you don't want to say anything but, if you don't say anything, they'll walk all over you," he said. "They might still walk all over us anyway but you've got to justify yourself, you've got to have an opinion and you've got to make a statement of a belief you've got.

            Comment


              #56
              Evra v Suárez

              I'm not especially curious about the thoughts of the next British person in line to offer a sound byte on Blatter (The X Factor judges "We're shocked"). I am curious however as to whether this even causes a ripple in other European countries.

              We can probably assume that Asia, Africa and South America have nothing to say on the matter.

              Comment


                #57
                Evra v Suárez

                Nevermind that for now, how about the name of the guy he was shaking hands with in the picture, Tokyo Sexwale???!!!! Sounds like a great name for a Japanese porno actor!

                I kind of always assumed that tokyo sexwhale was a stagename used by isaac hayes when the drugs were starting to get a little out of hand.

                The ManUtd fan (I assume the 1878 is a clue...) takes some beating to be as racist as he can without sounding obviously so...The Wigan fan, well, he obviously has little knowledge of what horrors racism has unleashed and that it was a cornerstone of the Nazi ideology...

                Are you......... the mentalist?

                Comment


                  #58
                  Evra v Suárez

                  anti-racism was even further down the list of priorities for the allies in WW2 than it was for the north in the US civil war.

                  everton were also founded in 1878.

                  the daily telegraph had a world map of twitter mentions of blatter. apart from northern europe, the areas where the story was big mapped pretty closely onto the old british empire. uk & ireland, middle east down through the subcontinent, eastern and southern africa, nigeria, australia - everywhere except canada. places where nobody was talking about blatter included the americas, russia, east asia, and southern europe.

                  Comment


                    #59
                    Evra v Suárez

                    Many of these mentions of Blatter around the world might be debates on stockings v pantyhose rather than racism stuff though.

                    Comment


                      #60
                      Evra v Suárez

                      dalliance wrote:
                      More relevantly, Stan Collymore has made a lot of comments about racism on Twitter lately and received a lot of abuse from morons about it.
                      Two slightly different issues. He would have received abuse from morons however reasonable or inflammatory his comments on the subject were, such is the way of the Internet and the stupidity of Twitter.

                      As it was his comments criticising AVB for having the audacity to support and defend a player who has not been found guilty of anything thus far came with a presumptuous air of guilt on his part.

                      I don't follow him on Twitter, has he come out and similarly criticised Kenny Dalglish for his unbending support of Suarez since that episode blew up? Racism may well be a growing issue again, but xenophobia in the media has always been there. More tolerance is afforded to British players and managers than their foreign counterparts.
                      No, he's talked about the chants from Chelsea fans after the Terry incident, about his own experiences as a player, and lately about the fact that people got more upset about the poppy nonsense than about Blatter's racism comments (that's what UA's quotes refer to).

                      Comment


                        #61
                        Evra v Suárez

                        I am not sure what you are getting at, dalliance. Aside from the ludicrous shoehorning in of 2018 by some of the English commentators, surely memebers of every European country will feel the same way about Blatter

                        Comment


                          #62
                          Evra v Suárez

                          Apparently Poyet has made a right dick of himself on TalkSport, calling Evra a cry baby and what not.

                          Comment


                            #63
                            Evra v Suárez

                            I notice via the BBC that Beckham has spoken out against Blatter. Has Prince William said anything yet?

                            Comment


                              #64
                              Evra v Suárez

                              Here's a report on Poyet

                              I think we're getting into a very tricky area myself.The fact that it has been decided that calling someone a racist epithet is somehow worse than calling someone any other epithet is thrown into by Suarez's use of negrito, which by all accounts is not in the Uraguayan context directly racist. it sounds that he was using it as someone might use "sweetheart" or "girlfriend" to wind him up. Mildly homophobic certainly. Unpleasant. Definitely. But it's pretty peculiar behaving like a shocked old lady calling for her smelling salts when there can be deemed to be a racist element whilst still encouraging the wind-up elsewhere.

                              Footballers on the pitch say things to wind other footballers up. It's a pretty unpleasant culture. Gary Neville discusses with pride the things the United team said to Arsenal before games. If you allow "banter" do you then ban "banter" that can be said to have some kind of racial element. Is Roy Keane allowed to mock Patrick Vieira for ridiculing how proud he is of coming from Cameroon whilst still playing for France. Are you still allowed to ask David Beckham if his wife takes it up the arse? What about making use of a player's personal tragedy? Or calling someone's sister a whore (Preferisco la puttana di tua sorella©Materazzi)

                              There was a huge furore when some German players apparently Germans called the English " Island Monkeys" which England's black players understood as a racial epithet- it wasn't particularly racist just a general anti-English epithet. Perhaps on a par with Krauts. How long a ban should you get for calling someone a "Kraut" ?

                              The other point is the distinction between private and public discourse. The decision to prosecute means that everything that is said on the pitch is now public discourse in English, even if it's uttered privately in Spanish.

                              here is the full interview Apologies for linking to Talksport He says the meaning of Negro is very different is Uraguay, that he (Poyet) adapted to the difference but that Suarez has been here for three or four months, and has not had time to adapt. and that Suarez is not racist. Poyet condemns Blatter.

                              Comment


                                #65
                                Evra v Suárez

                                What an odd post.

                                Senegal, btw, not Cameroon.

                                Comment


                                  #66
                                  Evra v Suárez

                                  If you allow "banter" do you then ban "banter" that can be said to have some kind of racial element.
                                  Yes, if that racist element is derogatory (and it is hard to see how it would be otherwise)

                                  How long a ban should you get for calling someone a "Kraut" ?
                                  The same as any other racist term.

                                  I mean there really isn't much to debate here.

                                  Also, while I am the first to get pissed off with the likes of Beckham et al having their pronouncements sought on every single issue, if they are going to then they may as well do it decrying racism and the lax attitude towards it.

                                  Comment


                                    #67
                                    Evra v Suárez

                                    I am not sure what you are getting at, dalliance. Aside from the ludicrous shoehorning in of 2018 by some of the English commentators, surely memebers of every European country will feel the same way about Blatter
                                    Well there is an unfortunate apathy amongst too many European countries regarding racism in football, the reason why I was wondering if this latest Blatter comment will attract anywhere near the same opprobrium anywhere else but here.

                                    Comment


                                      #68
                                      Evra v Suárez

                                      Ah, apologies. I got the wrong end of the stick, I thought that you were saying that the British were over-reacting. Here's your answer

                                      He's apologised, by the way

                                      Comment


                                        #69
                                        Evra v Suárez

                                        Sheriff John Stone wrote:

                                        Senegal, btw, not Cameroon.
                                        Yes you're right. Apologies.

                                        I mean there really isn't much to debate here.
                                        I think there is an enormous amount to debate. How about if a player who has been playing in a football culture where a word (in their own language) is completely acceptable comes to another football culture and in the first three or four months is threatened with a ban for using that word is that player not being discriminated against on the grounds of their nationality/culture?

                                        Who is to say when the racist element is "derogatory"? language is used playfully, ironically, associatively, privately, and sometimes hurtfully. What if one player calls another "girlfriend"" is that homophobic hate speech or acceptable sledging?

                                        I think there is a huge amount of British self-righteousness around racism, and an attempt to legislate for how people use language which simply doesn't work.

                                        You only need to look at the use of the words like Retarded Spastic/Mongol/Special Needs to see how phrases developed to remove offence can rapidly become used in an offensive way.

                                        What if one player called another player "special needs". Would that be allowed? What if they had a sibling or a child that was handicapped in some way"?

                                        I think it would be far better to pay attention say, to employment practices and public discourse than legislation about the use of private language. At the very least you have to have proper procedures in place. The offended player complains to the referee- the referee speaks to the captain - the captain warns the player You can't just have complaints to the media after the game as a form of legislation.

                                        Comment


                                          #70
                                          Evra v Suárez

                                          How long did Suarez play in Holland? Surely Dutch culture takes an equally dim view of racial references, and surely Suarez can't play the country bumpkin who didn't know that referring to players by their race is frowned upon (especially not when you do it for the tenth time). That would be wilfull ignorance.

                                          I think Nefertiti makes some good points, but they all unravel when he places the bigotry of racism on a level with Yo Momma type jibes.

                                          Poyet is an asshole. It's one thing to claim that Suarez had no idea that he was acting the racist, quite another to tell Evra to stop bitching about racial abuse (and comparing it to being insulted about being South American just adds to the man's cuntitude).

                                          Comment


                                            #71
                                            Evra v Suárez

                                            This from Poyet is indefensible;

                                            "You cannot accuse people without a proper investigation, especially when it's a foreigner who is coming from a different place where we treat people of colour in a different way," he said.

                                            You are not racist when you go against one, but [you are] if you go against the whole world of different colour and nationalities. That is being racist, not saying one word in one moment.
                                            I presume Brighton will have to censure him, especially in light of campaigns such as this;

                                            BBC online 31 October 2011 Last updated at 10:15

                                            Brighton and Hove Albion in FA plea over homophobic chants

                                            Fans of Brighton and Hove Albion have called for more action to address homophobic chanting in football grounds.

                                            Some supporters said the FA was doing little to stop abuse, which is aimed at Albion fans because of the city's connections to the gay community.

                                            Homophobic and racist chants are outlawed by ground regulations.

                                            Funke Awoderu, the FA's equality manager, said everyone needed to take responsibility for stopping abuse.

                                            John Hewitt, chairman of the Albion's supporters club, said the problem is especially bad at away games.

                                            "We get it everywhere we go," he said.

                                            "The ground regulations say you cannot use homophobic behaviour.

                                            "There's a certain amount of banter between fans, but when it crosses that line and becomes offensive it's not acceptable.

                                            "The FA is is not doing enough."

                                            'Unacceptable chants'

                                            Raj Chandarana, from the Football Supporters Federation, said: "It isn't about trying to clamp down on things in a forceful way, which is quite difficult to do.

                                            "It's about education - making people aware that homophobic chants are unacceptable."

                                            Ms Awoderu said it was explicit in the regulations that homophobic abuse is a punishable offence.

                                            "Match day stewards and all the security and intelligence that's available to clubs, is such, that people also have a responsibility," she said.

                                            "It can't always be the FA that needs to have these sanctions, we all need to have the responsibility."

                                            Comment


                                              #72
                                              Evra v Suárez

                                              I saw some stuff about the use of negrito in Spanish speaking culture too. An example was a colleague of Barcelona's Thiago who sent him a tweet last week saying 'Negrito, good luck at Wembley on Saturday'.

                                              So it certainly is not offensive in certain contexts, however it is used between friends and I'm not sure that Suarez and Evra could be termed that.

                                              I actually have some sympathy for the FA in cases like the Terry one where you have accusation, counter accusation and not all that much actual evidence to work with. Unless you have hard and fast stuff that can be corroborated then it is hard to find someone guilty and tar their name in this way, as this hard and fast evidence is hard to come by then you run the risk of appearing to tread lightly and appear not to be taking racism seriously.

                                              What finally happened with the Evra and the Chelsea steward case? He said there was a racial element there didn't he and that was not found.

                                              Comment


                                                #73
                                                Evra v Suárez

                                                The particular sensitivity and righteousness about a person using the word negro/Negrito is a particulary English thing, I think.

                                                If I make good points they don't unravel. And I don't say anything about Yo Mamma type jibes.

                                                But I'd challenge this bit of your argument.

                                                (and comparing it [racial abuse] to being insulted about being South American just adds to the man's cuntitude).
                                                I imagine that their are a lot of derogatory remarks about South Americans I've heard people make some of them, from imitating the accent to remarks about poverty, incest, illegal immigrants, stupidity and cocaine smuggling. Are you saying that those kinds of remarks are not racist/derogatory or that they are less bad than remarks about black people? Or that South Americans should just suck it up.

                                                And I have absolutely no problem with what Poyet says in that quote.

                                                Comment


                                                  #74
                                                  Evra v Suárez

                                                  Actually, as alluded earlier by my good self, it's a very bad idea to call a black French speaker "negro" as in our language, it is grossly offensive. I doubt any of this would have happend if the player had not been a French speaker.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #75
                                                    Evra v Suárez

                                                    I think there is an enormous amount to debate. How about if a player who has been playing in a football culture where a word (in their own language) is completely acceptable comes to another football culture and in the first three or four months is threatened with a ban for using that word is that player not being discriminated against on the grounds of their nationality/culture?
                                                    This wasn't the point that I was saying there was no debate about. There is a lot of debate around the Evra/Suarez case in particular, not least due to there being no official judgement yet.

                                                    Who is to say when the racist element is "derogatory"? language is used playfully, ironically, associatively, privately, and sometimes hurtfully.
                                                    When the intent is to offend or when the term is offensive to others.

                                                    What if one player calls another "girlfriend"" is that homophobic hate speech or acceptable sledging?
                                                    The former.

                                                    I think there is a huge amount of British self-righteousness around racism, and an attempt to legislate for how people use language which simply doesn't work.
                                                    See, I see a lot of racist language still being used with intent and casually especially around the edges - see "Kraut", "Pikey" etc and I see the challenging use of that language does work. I certainly have had no difficulty with it.

                                                    You only need to look at the use of the words like Retarded Spastic/Mongol/Special Needs to see how phrases developed to remove offence can rapidly become used in an offensive way.
                                                    Yes, by idiots. Your argument there is arse-backwards

                                                    What if one player called another player "special needs". Would that be allowed?
                                                    No. I can't believe I am having to spell this out

                                                    What if they had a sibling or a child that was handicapped in some way"?
                                                    "Some of my best friends are spastics". The Blatter excuse, you mean?

                                                    I think it would be far better to pay attention say, to employment practices and public discourse than legislation about the use of private language. At the very least you have to have proper procedures in place. The offended player complains to the referee- the referee speaks to the captain - the captain warns the player You can't just have complaints to the media after the game as a form of legislation.
                                                    He wasn't complaining to the media though. He is complaining to the professional bodies governing his profession and it has been reported in the media. It wasn't in private. It was in public and it was from one employee to another in their place of work. Just because it is on a football pitch as opposed to, say, a factory doesn't make it different

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