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    Pulp aren't really all that

    Thread prompted partly by Owen Hatherley's book, and recent live performances. The first is totally fair enough, the second a bit sad if they're going to be just another band on the retro circuit. But I guess what bugs me most, really, is the news that they'll be a book of Jarvis Cocker's lyrics, which I can't imagine being a thrilling read.

    Don't get me wrong, some great moments, but surprised that people view them as a game-changer, and I've always felt them a bit critically over-rated.

    Some scattered observations

    1. Lauded for their political songs, but aside from the excellent "Common People:", there's not that many of them are there? "His N Hers" was super-smart kiss 'n' tell pop but not exactly songs which define what Britain was like at the time.

    2. Most of their songs about class are about shagging some posh birds – great songs many of them, but he doesn't get that much beyond smart observational reportage. The pattern is repeated time and time again – "I-Spy", "Disco 2000", "Feeling Called Love", all essentially reportage. I remember "After The Revolution" being not much more than a pretty banal sixth form style "what if?" song.

    3. Jarvis Cocker's songwriting got much beyond sex, which if you have to be anywhere is undoubtedly the best place to be, but he's not exactly got a great range as a songwriter.

    4. Hit an incredible and unexpected peak with "Different Class", but struggled terribly to follow it up. At the end of the day, this wasn't a group with that much longevity, was it? They were good-ish for ages, and only great briefly, right?

    5. "Different Class" is a great album which starts with one of "Misfits"; one of their most embarrassingly prosaic songs. "We don't look the same as you/We don't do the things you do/but we live around here too". Man, that's almost moon-spoon maybe-baby standard of rhymes. That was one song where I really think they underestimated their audience. After some pretty subtle songs, why this lumpen anthemic bollocks? A couple of years ago I would have said only "Taxman" is comparable for a poor song on a great album, but you know what, "Taxman" is actually a much more subtle song about politics and socio-economics than bloody "Misfits".

    6. "Babies" is such a wonderful song, but c'mon, he fell asleep inside the wardrobe? I just don't but that for a minute.

    7. I think ultimately Jarvis ended up inadvertently typecasting himself and unable to find a way out. I think of a song like "Something Changed", which is a beautiful little song, but so linear in its narrative. I think ultimately he became a character he couldn't write songs without. He became bigger than the songs, and like a writer or interviewer, that spells disaster.

    I happen to have just bunged on the Ragga Twins, but it strikes me that if you really want to know what Britain was like in the 1990s, you could do worse than listen to them. And of course Jarvis didn't understand what was going on himself at the time, as testified by his Mr Jones-visits-the-rave song "Sorted For Es and Whizz", a pleasant song but one which is, in retrospect, really a bit embarrassing.

    #2
    Pulp aren't really all that

    I think ultimately Jarvis ended up inadvertently typecasting himself and unable to find a way out
    This, partly, and also he did the real "career ending" bit of storming Michael Jackson's stage at the Brit Awards. Hilarious, for all concerned, but probably not the music execs who had millions invested in Michael's "comeback" that was meant to be launched on that performance.

    "Disco 2000" is lyrically one of the most poignantly beautiful songs ever recorded. It's alongside "Eleanor Rigby", "Imagine", "Comfortably Numb" or "Fairytale of New York".

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      #3
      Pulp aren't really all that

      I forgot about the Brits thing. That was great.

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        #4
        Pulp aren't really all that

        My Legendary Girlfriend:


        Patti Jo, Make me Believe in You:


        Little Girl (With Blue Eyes):


        erm, there's a point to all this, and I'll try to explain it after Brazil Venezuela is over.

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          #5
          Pulp aren't really all that

          I used to really love stuff on the SUAD label, all on tapes off my mate's 12s - I really need to hunt some down on mp3.

          And you're pretty much right on Pulp - really good, sometimes great.

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            #6
            Pulp aren't really all that

            Pulp's history is pretty unique in music, there aren't many bands that played on the toilet circuit for quite so long before finally hitting the big time.

            I'm too young to be an authority on their complete career and I got into them around the time of "My Legendary Girlfriend", which conincided with Saint Etienne releasing Foxbase Alpha and the two bands will always be associated in my mind for pursuing similar goals, not just with music, but also their image was similar. I guess The Field Mice were on a similar level musically, but the weirdness of Pulp's image was really appealing for me at the time.

            I think that period in Pulp's career was their second phase, there were no politics that I can think of in Jarvis's lyrics, just micro-social-observations with a vague nod to Lee Hazelwood, and I always found them to be laregely entertaining. "Common People" is a far grander social-commentary than most of Jarvis's lyrics and it works perfectly. But that song is the exception rather than the rule.

            Post "His n Hers" was the turning point to a third phase, when the public suddenly wanted to include Pulp rather than keep them at arms length. The great thing about Jarvis was that he was always prepared to become a megastar, you could see that when he was spraying Old Spice onto the 15 people watching them play at the New Cross Venue, or plugging his band to Gary Crowley on GLR. He's unique talent and (I hate this phrase) a real national treasure.

            I think your criticism of them/him is getting hung-up on only looking at the most public stage in a very long, varied and constantly envelope pushing career.

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              #7
              Pulp aren't really all that

              For about two or three years, Pulp were as good as anything else going on in British music, and Different Class is a magnificent record. For that one alone they deserve a good-sized footnote in history.

              But the praise showered on This Is Hardcore was ridiculous, and smelled strongly of after-the-fact compensatory atonement. Yes, the lyrics are intelligently morose, but ultimately it's dull as fuck to listen to. Most of the actual melodies are chronically insipid.

              Different Class, however, is savage. Elvis Costello wishes he could have made a record like that.

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                #8
                Pulp aren't really all that

                I don't really know Different Class because I never could be arsed with Pulp, indier than thou bollocks as far as I was concerned and I hated Common People etc. Maybe time to give it a chance.

                I do however love Richard Hawley's stuff.

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                  #9
                  Pulp aren't really all that

                  I don't really know them before "Lip Gloss" (which I like).

                  ABII, I think that's spot on on "This Is Hardcore". It kind of.... had to be good, surely, the dark come down album... surely Pulp would nail that. But complex and dark doesn't necessarily mean good, as Purves Grundy will tell you.

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                    #10
                    Pulp aren't really all that

                    Actually, meant to say that "This Is Hardcore" fell victim (so to speak) of over-praise because critics had too much invested in them. One of those odd phenomena which happens with music journalism – when's there's such momentum behind it critics consciously or unconsciously feel it must be good (sometimes to the point of ignoring what their ears tell them).

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                      #11
                      Pulp aren't really all that

                      Having just got back from what was possibly the best gig I've ever been to, this might be the wrong thread for me. But anyway, are you fucking mental? Pulp were never trying to be "political". They were social. It's observational songwriting, not polemic. They're supposed to make you feel uncomfortable, not get you out in the streets. Unless you're dancing.

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                        #12
                        Pulp aren't really all that

                        Social is political, isn't it? I don't really see a difference. There was supposed to be a thorn in amongst the roses. Which there was, just... not much.

                        Another thing about Pulp I find slightly irritating, despite liking a lot of their songs, is that it all seems so 70s. Not the music, but the observations, the societies – "Acrylic Afternoons", That title sounded absurdly nostalgic to the point of kitsch, even in the 1990s.

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                          #13
                          Pulp aren't really all that

                          Man, liking Richard Hawley over Pulp is like choosing a hug from your gran over 15 minutes with the hot girl next door.

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                            #14
                            Pulp aren't really all that

                            Something people, er, gloss over a bit is how sexual-assaulty a lot of Jarvis's lyrics are. I think it gives them a super-dark undertow, personally, but cause he's a skinny boy with glasses he gets away with things metallers and rappers never could, for lot of people.

                            Publishing lyrics as if they're poems is always a daft idea, but he did write superb lyrics and lead an intermittently brilliant band for a decade (91-01). Even the later stuff really stands out, with hindsight: 'Party Hard', 'This Is Hardcore' and 'Weeds' are very succinct, imaginative, catchy, venomous pop songs, leagues above anything their cheese/coca-harvesting contemporaries pulled out of the bag.

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                              #15
                              Pulp aren't really all that

                              I adored Pulp when I was at university (during their peak period in the mid 90s) and always found them to be far above the Oasis/Blur posturing. There are still times when I go back to those albums from that era - some of the stuff has held up well and other tracks have not.

                              This is Hardcore is a weird one though. I remember not really liking it at the time, despite my best efforts and despite the fact that the critics seemed to praise it to high heaven. Yet coincidentally, I picked it up again recently and found a lot of it clicked. I genuinely don't think it's as mediocre as people say (although there's a few tracks that don't really work).

                              It really is a comedown from the excesses of the Britpop era and a major "Fuck You" to the whole genre. A few other bands had a similar reaction (The Boo Radleys spring to mind with C'mon Kids) and perhaps suffered for it. With Pulp at the time, everyone wanted Different Class 2 and I was obviously one of them.

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                                #16
                                Pulp aren't really all that

                                I think, also, they're only as 'seventies' as John Maus, Ariel Pink and so on are 'eighties': they used those tools very self-consciously, in a pretty sophisticated way. Perhaps it seems less self-conscious to us when British bands do it, especially now that the obscure records they drew from have become commoner currency. But let's face it: Roxy Music were better than Neil Young. Pulp did the right thing.

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                                  #17
                                  Pulp aren't really all that

                                  They were fucking brilliant tonight. And I don't care that it was gratuitous retroism, it was magical.

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                                    #18
                                    Pulp aren't really all that

                                    But let's face it: Roxy Music were better than Neil Young.

                                    Nah. Don't think I'm going to face that.

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                                      #19
                                      Pulp aren't really all that

                                      And can I also point out that as fantastic as Pulp were, and they were fucking fantastic, Grace Jones's arse was better. Ta.

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                                        #20
                                        Pulp aren't really all that

                                        This thread has just reminded me of a funny YouTube video I came across recently. Check out Stephen Merchant getting down to Pulp at Glastonbury 1994 at about 2m 48s in this video:

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                                          #21
                                          Pulp aren't really all that

                                          diggedy derek wrote:
                                          1. Lauded for their political songs, but aside from the excellent "Common People:", there's not that many of them are there?
                                          What about "Deep Fried In Kelvin" and "Joyriders" and "Last Day Of The Miners' Strike" and and and...? (The last of those three was a bit rubbish, mind.)

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Pulp aren't really all that

                                            diggedy derek wrote:
                                            5. "Different Class" is a great album which starts with one of "Misfits"; one of their most embarrassingly prosaic songs. "We don't look the same as you/We don't do the things you do/but we live around here too". Man, that's almost moon-spoon maybe-baby standard of rhymes. That was one song where I really think they underestimated their audience. After some pretty subtle songs, why this lumpen anthemic bollocks? A couple of years ago I would have said only "Taxman" is comparable for a poor song on a great album, but you know what, "Taxman" is actually a much more subtle song about politics and socio-economics than bloody "Misfits".
                                            "Mis-Shapes".

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Pulp aren't really all that

                                              I've got to echo GY and EIM - Pulp were totally amazing last night. They most definitely are all that.

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                                                #24
                                                Pulp aren't really all that

                                                diggedy derek wrote:
                                                1. Lauded for their political songs, but aside from the excellent 'Common People'...
                                                I can't stand it and it feels like I'm the only person in the world who hates it, but I do hate it and I don't care if I'm alone. I hate the whispery bits. I hate the idea of it.I hate the texture of it.I hate the vocal delivery. I hate the melody. I hate the way everyone thinks it's so anthemic and clever.I hate the way it thinks it's so clever.It's not.It's a plodder.It plods and plods and plods and never stops.It's on loop in hell.It's the end of night imperative to pissed-up angsty sensitive student-types ordering them to go piss in a phonebox after they've finished screaming the lyrics in each others faces on the dancefloor, and it stinks like the phonebox.

                                                The Michael Jackson stage-invasion thing was amusing however.
                                                If only Jacko had invaded the stage at Glastonbury and returned the compliment.

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                                                  #25
                                                  Pulp aren't really all that

                                                  Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of Common People. I mean, it's catchy, and I understand why it's so popular, but pretty much every other song on the album is better. Except maybe Sorted for E's and Whizz, and even that has it's place.

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