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XIII - The Rugby League Thread

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    XIII - The Rugby League Thread

    Right, I know the sport of Rugby League isn't the most popular of games in these parts but if you're at a loose end this Wednesday morning, and have access to Sky Sports or a decent streaming site, you could do no worse than take in game 1 of Queensland vs. New South Wales - State Of Origin 2011.

    Now in it's 31st year, this is probably the ultimate in intense, skilful rugby league. Well known for it's tendency to erupt into all out war, if you need a taster then watch some of the many YouTube videos available to view.

    Queensland have dominated in recent times, and start as red hot favourites. This is also the last SoO for Maroons skipper and Aussie legend Darren Lockyer, and he's determined to bow out a winner.

    Bring on the biff!

    #2
    XIII - The Rugby League Thread

    Talking of proper rugby, did anyone else see that Pie-eater score a try yesterday whilst unconscious?

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      #3
      XIII - The Rugby League Thread

      Heh, aye. Bradford are my team, and it looks like Gaz Raynor's tried to knock the ball out his hands, and missed. Tomkins is a snide little shit anyway, I reckon it was well appreciated outside of Wigan.

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        #4
        XIII - The Rugby League Thread

        Pure Sporting theatre, 1994.

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          #5
          XIII - The Rugby League Thread

          Well, Game 1 didn't disappoint, with Queensland edging home 16-12, thanks to a late Billy Slater try. New South Wales can take great heart from their display though, and it's set up Game 2 beautifully. Can't wait.

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            #6
            XIII - The Rugby League Thread

            Indeed. Rugby league is a great sport. The only way I can think it has the reputation of being less intellegent than other sports is because it is largely working class. It is noticable that the biggest successes going to rugby union have been the coaches.

            The top flight is gaining healthy crowds and seems genuinely competitive. It is a shame so few areas of the country have access or affiliation to a major local team.

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              #7
              XIII - The Rugby League Thread

              Game 2 starts in about an hour. Go on, you know you want to.......

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                #8
                XIII - The Rugby League Thread

                Some of us still remember the county competitions. Yorkshire, Lancashire and Cumberland, I think.

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                  #9
                  XIII - The Rugby League Thread

                  They should bring back Yorkshire v. Lancashire.

                  Fair play to Blues today. Paul Gallen was freakishly good for them, one of the most inspirational sporting displays of modern times.

                  For the 1st time in 4 years, we have a series decider on July 6.

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                    #10
                    XIII - The Rugby League Thread

                    They're showing this on FSC here. I'm intrigued. I think it's a great idea. I wish we did it with our sports.

                    Is the SOO series only Queensland v NSW or do the other states have teams?

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                      #11
                      XIII - The Rugby League Thread

                      Just those two, as Victoria is AFL territory.

                      Gridiron would be interesting: Florida, California, Texas and Pennsylvania.

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                        #12
                        XIII - The Rugby League Thread

                        They have high school all-star games of like that, but it's not high intensity. Hockey could do it. Quebec v Ontario, BC v Alberta, Minnesota vs Massachusetts, etc.

                        Surely, NSW has a much larger player pool to chose from because they have a lot more people.

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                          #13
                          XIII - The Rugby League Thread

                          Off topic a bit but, I see that Russell Crowe is trying to promote the idea of taking the four best Australian RL teams and the four best British teams and putting them into some kind of two month champions legue to be played in the USA. Vegas, probably.

                          Intriguing. It might make sense to have an event like that here so that the more well-heeled fans of the teams it it can come enjoy a holiday in the US and follow their team. Vegas has lots of hotels and it would be a truely neutral site and about as equidistant from both countries as you can reasonably expect.

                          But I don't think RL has much chance in the US. There is a bit of it, mostly around Philadelphia and NYC, I think, but all the high school and college teams play union. NBC is pushing 7s and the RWC ahead of the olympics, and I don't think you can expect a skeptical American audience to now learn a whole new set of rules when they can't understand the union rules either. I certainly don't, despite some effort.

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                            #14
                            XIII - The Rugby League Thread

                            That's rather good of him, seeing as his team, South Sydney, aren't one of the top 4 in Australia. They tried a World Club Championship in 1997, and it was an unmitigated disaster. For the British clubs, anyway.

                            Markus Vassilapokolous, who skippered the US rugby team, went to school a mere 200 yards from my house.

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                              #15
                              XIII - The Rugby League Thread

                              So why support the Maroons George (I'm assuming you are English)?

                              I support Queensland too, it's an odd support for me. I lived in Queensland for a couple of months when I moved to Australia in 1994 before moving to Sydney and spent about 8 months in NSW. NSW play in blue as well which would normally take me in their direction. But the State of Origin matches of 1995 were very bitter affairs. The Murdoch backed Super League was signing players and those who signed were banned from the State of Origin match, this affected Queensland more than NSW and most commentators were writing the series off as a mismatch before it had begun.

                              Queensland didn't even have a coach and drafted in a guy called Paul Vautin. Vautin had been a great player but had never coached. He presented a programme called the Footy Show so had a high profile but came over as a bit of a fool on that show. I really liked it but I can't help but feel it would have been derided by the critics on here had they ever seen it.

                              So with almost a full first choice team missing and a coach who hadn't managed anyone before and was best known as a comedy sidekick they promptly beat NSW 3-0 in the series. It really was Hollywood stuff, they even won the big 'blue' at the start of the 2nd game, I was dumbstruck that this fight was not only premeditated it had been intimated by commentators before the match started. They'd close football down if something like that happened in Glasgow.

                              So I became a Maroon fan for life. Vautin was also a Manly legend and as I was living in Manly at the time of the games they became my club, they made the grand final that year too being cheated out of it by fuckin Canterbury. I guess I must have a secret thing for maroon.

                              On the face of it I'm an unlikely Rugby League fan, having never seen a match until I was 24, in truth I was barely aware the game existed until then. But George is right, the State of Origin matches are the best rugby you'll ever see.

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                                #16
                                XIII - The Rugby League Thread

                                For those happy to accept a slightly more everyday match, St Helens versus Wigan is on Sky Sports this Friday.

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                                  #17
                                  XIII - The Rugby League Thread

                                  I understand some of the key rule differences between league and union, but I don't really understand what difference those differences really make. I don't understand why one would stridently prefer one over the other.

                                  Markus Vassilapokolous, who skippered the US rugby team, went to school a mere 200 yards from my house.
                                  Brian Hightower, who does the NBC color commentary for rugby sevens, went to my college when I was there. He played for the USA and coached Dartmouth for a while and is by far the best men's rugby player W&M (they only play in Division II of the US collegiate scheme, have flirted with dissolution a few times, and have never made it to the national playoffs, as far as I know) ever produced, I'm sure. He also played a bit of lacrosse when I was in that club. Remarkable athlete.

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                                    #18
                                    XIII - The Rugby League Thread

                                    In response to Afrikaams' post, I support the maroons mainly because I grew up at the time of that awesome Australian side of the late 80's, which had Wally Lewis and Mal Meninga playing in it, and they were my favourites. Also, when I was very young, Artie Beetson used to regularly come to Hull and stay at the pub my mum worked at, which was owned by Hull KR's chairman (Beetson turned out for Rovers some years previous), and I remember one of his maroon jerseys hanging behind the bar, quite possibly from the 1st ever Origin series in 1980.

                                    Bob8, I'd be pretty loath to label Saints - Wigan an "everyday" match.

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                                      #19
                                      XIII - The Rugby League Thread

                                      Bob8 wrote:
                                      For those happy to accept a slightly more everyday match, St Helens versus Wigan is on Sky Sports this Friday.
                                      To someone who once lived just outside Leigh, it sounds perfectly dreadful...

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                                        #20
                                        XIII - The Rugby League Thread

                                        Reed John wrote:
                                        I understand some of the key rule differences between league and union, but I don't really understand what difference those differences really make. I don't understand why one would stridently prefer one over the other.
                                        Oddly, I think there is a culture in the way the game is played. League has more concentration on individual all round play and quick tactical calls to create order from chaos.

                                        Rugby union has more emphasis on set pieces each player has a more specific role.

                                        Possession is limited in league, so there is more emphasis on keeping the ball alive (and tackling higher, so that the player cannot kep the ball alive). In rugby union, territory is more of a challenge, so a player is more likely to kick and push forward with less passing.

                                        Subtle differences overall and both are great to play in my opinion.

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                                          #21
                                          XIII - The Rugby League Thread

                                          That makes sense. Thanks.

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                                            #22
                                            XIII - The Rugby League Thread

                                            It all comes down to one main issue. How to move from the end of one phase of play to the start of the next.

                                            League went some of the way down the route that Americans took, of calling the ball dead after a tackle and re-setting everything. I say some of the way, because the tackled player can 'play-the-ball' as soon as he is back on his feet, he doesn't have to wait for the rest of the match to get aligned, unlike American Football. The ball, however, is briefly dead after each tackle in a League match, in that between the point when the ref calls 'held' and the tackled player 'plays-the-ball', possession cannot be exchanged.
                                            In Union the ball doesn't go dead of necessity after each tackle. The tackled player must 'release' it, which means placing it on the ground. He is given a small amount of time to effect this release, and can place it in whichever position relative to his body that he desires as long as he can do this quickly enough.

                                            The big stylistic consequence of this is that it allows League players to run further from their teammates than would ever be wise for a Union player. Jinking individual breaks make sense in League, because, as long as you are strong enough to retain the ball in the tackle, you can simply wait for for teammates to catch up with you. Doing this in a Union game means surrendering possession.

                                            For me, Union, when it works, is the more fluid game, more team-based, because of these rules. However, when it doesn't work there is the strong chance of turgid nonsense. If the ball isn't moved far or fast enough away from the majority of players, you can end up with a large pile-up and something akin to Greco-Roman wrestling in an attempt to wrest possession, with the ball hidden under the pile and the spectators (and often the referee) none-the-wiser as to what is going on.
                                            League, even at it's best, doesn't achieve the same fluidity as it only takes one tackle to mean the ball has gone dead and the play is broken up without consequence for the team responsible, but it certainly doesn't suffer equal troughs. Obviously you can still get a bad game of League, where niether side displays the wit to break down the opposition defence, and instead all you get is a succession of big blokes running in isolation straight at other big blokes, reasonably secure in their retention of the ball. This is the basis of the British Bulldogs jibe often leveled at League fans by Union ones. But whilst such a game of League might be extremely dull, at least one can see what is going on. Plus League fans wouldn't seek to defend such a game as something traditional to be carefully preserved, a trap into which some old-school Union fans fall into when presented with a forward mud-wrestle.

                                            But really, why one would prefer one code to the other has a lot to do with geography. League is big in the Australian states that prompted this thread, and in Northern England, and with expats from those regions.

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                                              #23
                                              XIII - The Rugby League Thread

                                              Bob8 wrote:
                                              Possession is limited in league, so there is more emphasis on keeping the ball alive (and tackling higher, so that the player cannot kep the ball alive). In rugby union, territory is more of a challenge, so a player is more likely to kick and push forward with less passing.
                                              N.B. This might seem to contradict what I just said about possession being easier to retain in League, but in fact another rule means it does not.

                                              When a side gets the ball in League, they have 6 tackles to do something with it. After the 6th tackle, the ball is automatically handed to the other side. You might see a similarity here with the 4-down rule, and the purposes are obviously similar. If a League team had unlimited tackles (or an American Football team had unlimited downs), then possession would only rarely switch sides.
                                              This is part of my problem with League's solution to the tackle-area problem, as I find this crucial rule slightly artifical. Union teams are more willing to trade territory for possession as they have a better chance of regaining possession in a tackle.

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                                                #24
                                                XIII - The Rugby League Thread

                                                I'm talking to myself here...

                                                I think I appear to be doing League a disservice. I'm of the opinion that the average game of League is more fluid than the average game of Union. Just that Union has a wider distribution, so the 95th percentile is higher for Union, despite the mean being lower.

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                                                  #25
                                                  XIII - The Rugby League Thread

                                                  Janik wrote:
                                                  I'm talking to myself here...

                                                  I think I appear to be doing League a disservice. I'm of the opinion that the average game of League is more fluid than the average game of Union. Just that Union has a wider distribution, so the 95th percentile is higher for Union, despite the mean being lower.
                                                  I think you prefer union and are doing an admirable job of being fair to both. I prefer league and also try to be fair to both.

                                                  Artificiality is a factor of what we are more used to. All forms of football are remarkably contrived arguments about where a bag of air should be.

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