Snow White

[adams house cat]

'Snow White And The Seven Dwarfs' showed up on TV last night. Mrs. House Cat and I watched it entranced although we have both seen it many times before. I've said this before but the traditional Disney animation features are so much better than the Pixar confections; so much more charming.

Pixar has done nothing to touch it or 'Jungle Book', '101 Dalmations', 'Bambi' 'Lady And The Tramp'. Can't list them all.

Any dissent?

[Gangster Octopus]

Snow White

Yeah. You haven't mentioned Fantasia...

[Incandenza]

Snow White

Wow...don't get me wrong, I love Dumbo and Pinocchio had a huge impact on me when I saw it (for the worse...still scares me to think about it), but a lot of the early Disney movies haven't aged well, I don't think. My daughter watched Sleeping Beauty recently, and while the artwork and the cinematography in that are stunning in some parts, as a story it's incredibly weak. Alice in Wonderland is very beautiful, but there's really no story at all. Different observation--I haven't watched Snow White all the way through recently, but I was struck at how dark and scary it is. No big studio children's movie today would go near that.

Wall-E, Monsters, Inc, Finding Nemo, and Toy Story 2 and especially Toy Story 3 are all great, I think, both technically and in terms of story. I wonder if kids who have grown up with these will look back at them the same way a lot of people do with the old Disney films. Perhaps not--movies might not mean the same thing to kids now than they do to people from past generations. Still, I can't think of many animated films (hell, any films) that are as profound in being about growing up, the loss of childhood and the fear of being alone as Toy Story 3 is.

[Amor de Cosmos]

Snow White

I broadly agree with Inca regarding content. Modern animation, from a story-telling point of view, frequently shows far more complexity than in the past. Part of that has to do with the amount of long-form these days but that doesn't make it any less true.

When it comes to the visual side of things however its a different story. The nature of digital animation tends to produce images that lack identity. There's no creative personality or visual signature evident, or at least I find it hard to detect one. Because the medium is essentially one of mathematical description no hands, single or collective, have been present since the concept art stage way back at the beginning of the project. Consequently the images are perfect but unexpressive, provided with movement but not life. It's something my boy, who's likely to working in this industry in a couple of years, discuss quite a lot but there's no obvious answer on the horizon.

[Ginger Yellow]

Snow White

Because the medium is essentially one of mathematical description no hands, single or collective, have been present since the concept art stage way back at the beginning of the project.

Have you ever watched/listened to a Pixar commentary? This couldn't be further from the truth.

[Disco Child Ballads]

Snow White

No mention of Beauty and the Beast either, which was probably the last great traditionally animated Disney film. It's hard to believe that it was realeased 20 years ago. And the songs in it were great too. Things went downhill for Disney when they brought in Tim Rice to write the lyrics.

[Incandenza]

Snow White

DSS--yes, I had never seen Beauty and the Beast when it came out, so only saw it recently. It's excellent. Far better than The Little Mermaid or Mulan, the only other Disney movies I've seen from that era.

[Amor de Cosmos]

Snow White

Ginger Yellow wrote:

Because the medium is essentially one of mathematical description no hands, single or collective, have been present since the concept art stage way back at the beginning of the project.

Have you ever watched/listened to a Pixar commentary? This couldn't be further from the truth.

How so?

[Incandenza]

Snow White

I can't answer for GY, but I know that Pixar does extensive pre-planning with character sketches, building models, doing lighting studies, storyboarding, etc. They have put out several "The Art of..." books for their films. Here's a review of the Toy Story 3 book (SPOILERS).

[Levin]

Snow White

Disco Sea Shanties wrote:

No mention of Beauty and the Beast either, which was probably the last great traditionally animated Disney film. It's hard to believe that it was realeased 20 years ago. And the songs in it were great too. Things went downhill for Disney when they brought in Tim Rice to write the lyrics.

Hey now! What about Lilo & Stitch? That's a great Disney film, traditionally animated too.

[Amor de Cosmos]

Snow White

Incandenza wrote:

I can't answer for GY, but I know that Pixar does extensive pre-planning with character sketches, building models, doing lighting studies, storyboarding, etc. They have put out several "The Art of..." books for their films. Here's a review of the Toy Story 3 book (SPOILERS).

Oh yes, that's all part of the concept art stage. I was referring to the actual rendering which, unlike traditional animation, lacks the individuality and, for want of a better word, the "presence" of artist, or craftsmen. It used to be an ink and brush practice from beginning to end, and retained the characteristics of those media — in the line, the fluidity of movement. These days that exists in the the development stages but is truncated when it moves into a digital environment. There it is not merely reproduced, as photography does, but re-described into quite a different language. One of the brain rather than the hand (I mean that metaphorically not entirely literally.) Like music, in moving from an analogical to a digital process there are gains and losses.

[adams house cat]

Snow White

'Fantasia' is wonderful, no argument, but I couldn't list them all. I haven't seen 'Beauty...' or 'Lilo...' so I can't comment on them. I haven't seen 'Toy Story 3' yet so I will let you know.

'Pixar' have made some terrific films, true, and they are technically amazing but I still maintain that they lack the charm and the sense of wonder that the early, traditionally animated features had.

Amor is, I think, close to the point in that, if I read him correctly, he maintains that the characters in Pixar lack, er, character. When making the traditional features Disney would give each of the dwarfs, etc. to a particular animator and that endowed them with a personality. They seem more rounded.

[MsD]

Snow White

Some were endowed with more than personality when the boss wasn't looking, weren't they?

But that aside, I love the early Disneys, esp. Jungle Book (Baloo was my first love), Pinnochio, Snow White and that Zippity Doo-Dah one, which formed my mental image of heaven to this day.

The Queens in Sleeping Beauty and Snow White are terrifying.

I've got a hat like the Sleeping Beauty Evil Queen that someone bought for me from Disneyland, but it looks rubbish on me.

[Amor de Cosmos]

Snow White

That's not quite it AHC, Pixar and other studios also give characters to particular animators. I'm talking strictly visually, line, motion, colour, form. It's most noticeable historically. If you look at the early Max Fleischer shorts, for example, they are all about the media, they flow like ink and water. Everything mutates, moves, there's no stillness present, everything is active. Most noticeably only one man's hand is at work. The same is true with very early Disney and other studios, each was identifiable. As the studios, particularly Disney, got bigger the hands became more anonymous but the medium retained it's original characteristics. Early digital animation, conversely, was utterly devoid of personality. Cheaply done and generic looking it was drained of both craftsmanship and imagination. Things have improved by light years since those days. Pixar and other studios have imagination in spades, but there is still a sense of visual homogeneity inherent in the process. They know it too, which is why techniques such as cel-shading are used in an attempt to emulate traditional media.

[Incandenza]

Snow White

MsD wrote:

The Queens in Sleeping Beauty and Snow White are terrifying.

You may not be in the mood for seeing it, but the mother in Tangled is also really scary.

[adams house cat]

Snow White

I get your point now Amor and I concur. I don't know as much of the technical aspects as you but your reference to Max Fleischer brings the point home.

The Queen in "Snow White...' is terrifying and I understand some sequences were cut on first release because of that although I found Cruella DeVille more frightening.

While we are on the subject we should give credit to the artists who created the backgrounds on which the animators worked. Many of them are stunning.

[Gangster Octopus]

Snow White

MsD wrote:

But that aside, I love the early Disneys, esp. Jungle Book

Now, I wouldn't've called Jungle Book "early Disney". Probably mid-period or something.

[MsD]

Snow White

Yes, you're right.

[Cavalry Trouser Tips]

Snow White

I know we're not doing 'favourite Disney film again' here, but I have to mention The Aristocats as being my personal favourite (Best. Music. Ever.) and this review.

[Gangster Octopus]

Snow White

I think that this obituary fits in here.

[matt j]

Snow White

I dissent with the opening post, not that I particularly prefer the Pixar films ( I love Robin Hood for instance, and The Emperor's New Groove just kills me no matter how many times I've watched, and those are obviously 'lesser' Disney films), but because these are ultimately just different beasts, being products of entirely different times and aesthetics. And one is built on top of the other.

I find the character of Wall-E to be more charming than most of the hand drawn characters of Disney, and thought that Ratatouille was phenomenal visually and had a noticably 'personal' touch, and will watch it over and over and not get bored.

Snow White, Dumbo, and many of those other early Disney films are ultimately pretty shallow and lightweight. Not that they aren't great, but Dumbo, as an example, is a stretch of a film at 64 minutes. And don't get me wrong, I love the pink elephants and crows, but that's two moments of brilliance, and the rest barely registers, I think.

[Reed John]

Snow White

I agree with Matej and Inca, broadly, but I find that young kids often still really like the old classics even though they've seen the Pixar movies too. My niece was so entranced by Dumbo that she wanted a Dumbo-themed birthday party.

[Incandenza]

Snow White

Matej wrote:

Snow White, Dumbo, and many of those other early Disney films are ultimately pretty shallow and lightweight. Not that they aren't great, but Dumbo, as an example, is a stretch of a film at 64 minutes. And don't get me wrong, I love the pink elephants and crows, but that's two moments of brilliance, and the rest barely registers, I think.

Wow, shocked at that, Matej. I think you may change your mind on Dumbo once you have your daughter...unless you aren't like me and avoid turning into a slobbering sentimental mess during "Baby of Mine."

And I had somehow completely forgotten Ratatouille and Up from my list of classic Pixar films.

[matt j]

Snow White

Yeah, I knew somebody would mention that. I won't argue against it, but it was always the song where me and my brother would go get a snack or start throwing things at each other.

On the other hand, there is something to say about the sentimental 'sucker punch' ability of those oldest of Disney films. Bambi and Dumbo both nailed that, and possibly only Ice Age, Up, and The Iron Giant have done as well since.

[Incandenza]

Snow White

Sorry, I hate to pull the "you'll know when you have kids" card.

Really, Ice Age? I haven't seen it. I'd say Toy Story 3, but the ending of that only really gets to adults, I think.