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$3,000,000. That doesn't seem quite right.

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    $3,000,000. That doesn't seem quite right.

    Toronto's getting new streetcars (electric trolleys) in the next few years. 240 of 'em. Our current fleet is approx. 25 years old and nearing the end of its useful life. The cost for each new car? Three million dollars.

    Now, I'm not an engineer, but I do know my way around mechanical things and know how shit gets built (bit of an interest, dad was a tool and die engineer, etc etc) and I don't think a streetcar is worth $3 mil.

    Buses, diesel ones, of comparable size and lifespan cost roughly $350,000. Yes, there's a fairly straightforward set up to them, and diesel motors are readily built and repaired, etc. Streetcars have electric motors which are likely quite specialized and pricey (with limited sales potential, etc) but it just seems out-of-whack that one form of conveyance could cost such an order of magnitude more than another that's so similar.

    Now, I'm sure you could argue that one has specialized controls, and pricey rolling stock compared to standard-issue tires, but couldn't you get your head around that with a figure that's maybe two or three times as costly, not fucking ten times as costly? There's no real magic dust involved in their manufacture that could possible push the price to that height, is there? I mean, for all intents and purposes, it's a great big toy electric train.

    I'm wondering this: this is a government contract, and we generally know how those work. First, there's bound to be a massive profit margin involved, and it would be guaranteed and ensured six different ways to Sunday, otherwise no one would bid on the job.
    Second, my bet is that this is such a specialty product that the price includes such things as building the factory, buying equipment, hiring people, actually building the things, and then the cost to package everyone off when it's all over and shutter the plant. That's all that I can imagine would drive the price so high.

    Does anyone among us know anything about this sort of thing? Am I close or way off the mark?

    #2
    $3,000,000. That doesn't seem quite right.

    That's only about £400,000 or something.

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      #3
      $3,000,000. That doesn't seem quite right.

      The NPS is not amused by archaic references to our weak dollar. We will crush you all with our oil-infused currency.

      It's almost exactly 1.5M pounds.

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        #4
        $3,000,000. That doesn't seem quite right.

        There's no real advantage to using trams instead of buses if those new tram lines end up taking out a bus or road lane.

        It's definitely much more costly, but what's an extra decimal when Torontonians can now feel like they are in Barcelona or Amsterdam?

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          #5
          $3,000,000. That doesn't seem quite right.

          "Our current fleet is approx. 25 years old and nearing the end of its useful life."

          Milan has the largest tram network in Western Europe. Roughly half the stock was built in 1929.

          But I would guess you are looking at something like these

          instead of this:



          I'm pretty sure that Bombardier builds trams; I would expect that is where yours are coming from. I also think you are seriously underestimating the differences in motive power and the economies of scale that exist in the market for diesel buses. Are you sure the capacities are the same?

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            #6
            $3,000,000. That doesn't seem quite right.

            Trams work better in European cities because those have very dense cores and their centers are often pedestrian. I'm not sure if it's the case in Toronto.

            Bombardier is indeed the world leader in the field, along with Alstom.

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              #7
              $3,000,000. That doesn't seem quite right.

              Ursus, yes, that's the type of thing we're looking at. They're apparently down to a Siemens model and a Bomardier model, and I'm pretty sure I know which way that will go - being paid for in tax dollars and all.

              They'll be quite nice, it seems, with 100% low-floor for easy/equal access. Capacity will be around 150 including standing. A recent caveat means they'll need to be 75% Canadian-content, which Siemens says they'll meet, but which has knocked out 7 or 8 other contenders.

              I dunno. You're probably right. But it just seems that, if you had the right single-minded person in charge of this (instead of bureaucrats) and a room full of Really Smart Guys (including designers, engineers and accountants), you could probably have 'em built for a fuck of a lot less money than that.

              Comment


                #8
                $3,000,000. That doesn't seem quite right.

                Bombardier is Quebec's tax dollars at work, not ours, amigo. Wouldn't (or shouldn't) cut much ice as a decision factor.

                The competing vendors both had their models set up at the CNE last summer. The Siemens is way cooler.

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                  #9
                  $3,000,000. That doesn't seem quite right.

                  Nah, the factory that would produce 'em is in Thunder Bay, so I bet it'll weigh heavy. Siemens, however, has pledged to build theirs in the Toronto area.

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                    #10
                    $3,000,000. That doesn't seem quite right.

                    The green one above is a Alstom; I think Siemens have something quite similar. I was on one last night; they're great.

                    And I don't think the ones here or elsewhere on the continent are going for a lot less that Euro 2 million a piece.

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                      #11
                      $3,000,000. That doesn't seem quite right.

                      I'd wager that the Docklands Light Railway trains in London cost around $3m each as well.

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                        #12
                        $3,000,000. That doesn't seem quite right.

                        The thing is though, wouldn't these trains be mostly hand built? I'd doubt the volumes are there to make it worthwhile buying robots for the assembly lines.

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                          #13
                          $3,000,000. That doesn't seem quite right.

                          It's a pork barrel operation, it would have been far more efficient to build them in existing factories as opposed to setting up a new one in Ontario.

                          Tram train costs are only part of the investment, a big part of it has got to be the cost of building and maintaining the new track. Another reason why buses are more efficient.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            $3,000,000. That doesn't seem quite right.

                            Oh, hand built, for sure. But compare that to a top-of-the-line bus type Winnebago RV thing. They're all hand-built and quite well-appointed, but still nowhere near $3 million apiece.

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