Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

[bovril]

Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

there was a very lenghty discussion at the time of recording (and release) of the Born In The USA track.
Springsteen was extremely worried that it would be misinterpreted as the vocals in the verses (which contain the real meaning of the song) are much lower in the mix than the anthemic chorus.
Listen to the song performed live on the tour and he reverses the emphasis on verses and chorus.
Any how, yes he did know that the song could be misinterpreted, but i think that neither he nor his management had any idea just how enormous sales of the album would be. And that the casual mass-appeal (which Springsteen had not had before) listener would not be prepared to look for a different angle on the song to the obvious sing-a-long.
There was also quite a fuss about the cover design. The flag on the cover is another example of "well he must have known how that would look". At the time though many people thought that he was pissing on the flag!

[Calvert]

Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

Bored of Education wrote:

Similarly, you are falling into the territory of saying that Judas Priest or whoever should worry about how some yahoo in Buttfuck, Idaho is going to interpret their lyrics.

Two completely different things.
1 Judas Priest's lyrics being misinterpreted by a couple of morons who settle for suicide.
Bad news for them

2 Bruce's lyrics misinterpreted by ultra patriotic morons.
Bad news for everyone.

[Wyatt Earp]

Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

Etienne wrote:

Incidentally, I don't think Born In The USA is ironic in any shape or form. It's entirely straightforward.

Depends which definition of irony we're using. It's arguably an ironic juxtaposition. But certainly, it's not meant to be read with an implied "not".

[wingco]

Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

Etienne - I don't extend it to those records, not least because I'm not that familiar with them. And you may well have a point about the use of the word "irony" in this context., insofar as it assumes that the chorus is mock-celebratory. Perhaps it wasn't, but I still the effect of the record was undoubtedly inadvertent. Sure, the lyrics may get a clean bill of health if read "reasonably" but popular music doesn't only impact in that way. You don't have to be dumb not to get "Born In The USA" -you only need not be listening that hard and simply taking the chorus as a fist-pumping affirmation.

[Etienne]

Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

Wingco, no, I think you do have to be dumb not to see what Born In The USA is saying, certainly if you listen to it more than once.

Maybe if it was released now, with people only hearing the chorus as a ringtone. Maybe.

[RobM]

Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

Calvert W. McCutcheon wrote:

What's wrong with totally spelling it out for them?
Well, nothing I suppose if you're more concerned with your career.

Conversely - what's wrong with a more subtle approach?

Born in the USA is hardly subtle but if you simply spell things out you could break down say Dylan's Masters of War to -

You cunts, stop making bombs. x 22

[Calvert]

Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

Etienne wrote:

Calvert's 'argument' .

Fuck off, but just before you do, realise that in the unlikely event of California Uber Alles ever receiving the kind of exposure Born in the USA did, you can be pretty sure that the Dead Kennedys wouldn't have been slow in putting right those who misinterpreted.
It'd be great to hear the Boss lambast the American administration or military and call for protests/action against, say, the Iraq War or continuing American pandering to Israel over the illegal settlements issue, but he's never going to alienate his audience that much.

[Mitch]

Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

It'd be great to hear the Boss lambast the American administration or military and call for protests/action against, say, the Iraq War

He did though didn't he? A song called "Bring Them Home" or something? About the same time Neil Young released his anti-war album.

[G-Man]

Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

But this was Springsteen, and Springsteen being Springsteen, the USA being the USA (especially in the 80s), what happened happened - and really, it ought not to have come as a surprise that it happened. It backfired. He should have anticipated this and approached the topic in a different way lyrically.

Springsteen's album before Born In The USA was the not very patriotic, not at all fist-pumping and generally un-Brooocian Nebraska. The River's big hits were about the consequences of teenage pregnancy, a man abandoning his family, and a couple of rock songs about romance. The album before was the decidedly non-flagwaving Darkness At The Edge Of Town.

So I'm not sure what you mean that "Springsteen being Springsteen" had to anticipate misreadings of his lyrics by patriotic flag-wavers, never mind having to take responsibility for people misunderstanding his not particularly opaque lyrics. Unless the "Springsteen being Springsteen" you mean is the post-1984 Springsteen of your conception.

I don't think that Springsteen was identifiable as an agent of patriotic American expression before the Born In The USA cover, which of course reinforced the misinterpretation.

[wingco]

Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

Etienne, I've heard "Born In The USA" probably dozens of times over the last 25 years, maybe more, and I have to be honest - it's only because of the assurances of chaps like yourself, and various Springsteen apologists over the years that I've accepted, in good faith, that it is an angry song about betrayal. I'm sure it is. Because when I say I've "heard" it, what do I mean by that? Did I ever sit right down the record player, hear it through, cocking an attentive ear throughout? Not this particular record, no. Like the vast majority of people, I heard it through a haze of blare and distraction, be it that big, shiny synth hook, those clap hands above the head rhythms, Bruce's holler - and all that compounded with where I've heard it - at bad parties, in fleeting snatches in malls, in pubs amid the loud chatter - it's always been an insistent but broken-up ambient experience.

In other words, when ever I've heard the song, half zoned out as I was probably trying to do something else at the time, I've heard it something like as follows;

"Nuh huuh bruuughhh . . .nu-hugh - rughhhhh - nununugugh ghugh . . . . hurough - BORN IN THE USA!! I WAS BORRRN IN THE USA!! Nuh huuh bruuughhh . . .nu-hugh - rughhhhh - nununugugh ghugh . . . . hurough - BORN IN THE USA!!!"
etc.

Now, that's my experience of the song as someone indifferent to it, but I'm pretty sure there's a vast constituency of people who experienced the song similarly indistinctly, from the other, more enthusiastic side but didn't trouble to take on board the nuance and lyrical content, even though Springsteen doubtless took reasonable steps to make his meaning clear, on paper. What he didn't anticipate were all the factors that muddy the channels between composition and ultimate consumption. Bruce evidently failed to take this into his calculations if he was serious about making a protest. Which is why Chrysler were prepared to offer him millions to use the song in the commercial. Just take the chorus bit, filter out that other, bitter stuff and hey, there's the song we "know" and love.

And y'know what he should have written? "Stand down Reagan stand down please, stand down Reagan". But for some reason, he didn't.

[wingco]

Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

G-Man, when I said "Springsteen being Springsteen", I meant him being a high profile white rock male, him playing the sort of direct music that he does and having the sort of vast reach as an artist that he did, way beyond a coterie of intelligent and highly attentive admirers.

[Etienne]

Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

Evidently you've not managed to hone that 'argument' then, Calvert. I reckon Springsteen is some way to the left of East Bay Ray these days, while Jello (admirable as I still think his politics) endorsed Jerry Brown this election. And what Mitch said.

Wingco, fair enough about your experiences with the song, but
a) either they are atypical compared to how most of its American audience would have heard it (which I think is more likely)
or
b) it didn't have the cultural impact that its critics suggest it did.

As for Chrysler, well, Mercedes have used Janis Joplin's song. That was hardly ambiguous either.

[Lucia Lanigan]

Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

I was half joking with the Meatloaf comparison, but, well, wingco's already said it all better than I (or indeed Rolling Stone's "These bellowings are obviously i-rahnic" crew) can. I'm just not into "the meaning's all in the lyrics" songwriting, so to my ears most Springsteen music is either bombastic rock too bitty to do the business, or rather flat strumminess. It's simply never tempted me to investigate his intentions, or analyse his work in the historic context of seventies America or what-have-you.

He is a good pop writer on occasion, though. Someone's going to tell me 'I'm On Fire' and 'Dancing In The Dark' are thoughtful paens to something or other, but really they're just good radio songs about being on fire or dancing in the dark. It's difficult to see 'Born in the USA' in a different light - I'm not sure what context Americans would have heard it in, Etienne, but I'd assume it would be coming out of a radio, same as it was over here.

He's also fascinating as an example of excessive earnestness coming full circle to produce something very camp. (See also: Cormac McCarthy's The Road, which I've had to give up on three times because all that "Black! BLACK! BLACK!!!" stuff - in fact, every last thing about it - makes me roll around the floor laughing.) If you showed me that most self-consciously "iconic" of album covers for the first time today I'd guess that the red cap in the pocket was a gay culture thing.

Anyway, I'm sure The Boss can take all this on the chin.

[Bored Of Education]

Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

I don't remember doing that. But it's the sort of thing I might have done

Yes, you did. It was one of those times when you realised that the people who are cunts aren't the ones that debate with you but the ones that do it and are right.

[Ray de Galles]

Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

Lucia Lanigan wrote:

I was half joking with the Meatloaf comparison,

It's Meat Loaf, two words. Please show him due respect by getting his name right.

[Lucia Lanigan]

Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

Apologies to Mr Loaf.

[Wyatt Earp]

Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

wingco wrote:

And y'know what he should have written? "Stand down Reagan stand down please, stand down Reagan". But for some reason, he didn't.

I'm a bit surprised, to be honest, to see you calling for one-dimensional agitprop in place of anything more complex. I mean, I honestly hate the Boss as much as you do, but I would hate a world in which all political-ish songs were like "Stand Down Margaret". (Quite apart from the fact that constitutionally, Reagan could only have "stood down" in favour of Bush Snr anyway.)

[Wyatt Earp]

Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

Bored of Education wrote:

I don't remember doing that. But it's the sort of thing I might have done

Yes, you did. It was one of those times when you realised that the people who are cunts aren't the ones that debate with you but the ones that do it and are right.

You what like?

[Wyatt Earp]

Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

Lucia Lanigan wrote:

... to my ears most Springsteen music is either bombastic rock too bitty to do the business, or rather flat strumminess.

Ah, yeah, likewise. I just don't really buy this "He should have known how it would be misused" stuff.

[Purves Grundy]

Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

Lucia Lanigan wrote:

Someone's going to tell me 'I'm On Fire' and 'Dancing In The Dark' are thoughtful paens to something or other, but really they're just good radio songs about being on fire or dancing in the dark.

I love this bit.

[RobM]

Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

Etienne wrote:

As for Chrysler, well, Mercedes have used Janis Joplin's song. That was hardly ambiguous either.

Steve Earle's 'The Revolution Starts Now' (fiercely unambiguous in it's message) was used to sell 4x4's in the States a few years back.

I mention it because Earle's been held up earlier in the thread as an example of what Springsteen isn't and could be.

Anybody who looks to musicians to be shining beacons of righteousness and all things left will invariably be let down. I think that people have a pop at Springsteen more than others for this is because he got so huge and not because he's done anything particularly heinous. Fair enough I suppose, the bigger the target etc..

Fred Goodman's book The Mansion on the Hill is a pretty good (but dry) summation of how artists like Dylan, Springsteen and Neil Young managed to foster and maintain an image while undernath it all people like David Geffen, Albert Grossman, John Landau and Young's manager Elliot somebody or another were ensuring that the wedge kept rolling in. Make no mistake, record companies don't as a rule advocate socialist ideals, if it sells though then that's a different matter.

[bovril]

Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

sounds like a good read that Rob.

i will try and track that down

[Ray de Galles]

Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

Elliot Roberts is Young's manager's name.

[RobM]

Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

bovril wrote:

sounds like a good read that Rob.

i will try and track that down

As I say bovril, it's a bit dry (and a doorstop of a book) but if you can get a cheap Amazon copy then it's probably worth it.

[RobM]

Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

Harry Truscott wrote:

Elliot Roberts is Young's manager's name.

That's the one, cheers Harry.