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    #26
    Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

    Springsteen has far too many fans of intelligence and discernment, not least on this thread, for me to feel able to support the idea that he's some sort of longterm blustery fraud, and I haven't engaged enough with his work to offer a thorough assessment of it but on the occasions when I have . . . .Christ.

    I once had to review Human Touch, which he released in conjunction with Lucky Town, evidently because he was feeling so creatively fertile at that point he couldn't limit himself to a single album release. I'd recently seen an interview with him in which he came across as almost punchdrunk, as slobberingly incoherent as DD's opening post implies. Maybe that prejudiced to me. But the whole album struck me as a rock'n'roll heartland reduced to its most banal, musically and lyrically. Oh, there was humour. "50 Channels And Nothing On", but, y'know, he was only about the 8,703,623rd person to crack that joke at that point. The rest of it was just the half-blind hankerings of a half-man, half-rock'n'roll animal stumbling around in a modern world that most of us managed to get a handle on like we did our first computer but which he found bewildering and lacking in Soul and Warmth and Humanity and Realness and Authenticity and Blood and Wood.

    Then there was "Born In The USA", Bruce at his most disingenuous, protesting that he never intended it to be the Reaganite, anthem it became. Sure, no doubt you didn't, Bruce, but did it not occur to you that it almost certainly would? That its hollered, stomping chorus would become a rallying cry for every jock, anti-disco, anti-Positive Discrimination reactionary in America? No doubt there are nuances aplenty in Springsteen's lyrical narrative but unfortunately he isn't working in cinema and they don't tend to get writ very large but get lost amid the phlegm and the holler and the guitar and the sleeveless check shirts and oldtime brass bits. I remember watching a documentary about white South Africa in the pre-1990 era and a bunch of young Afrikaaners at a disco jumping around to Bruce Springsteen's "Dancing In The Dark". He was a big favourite, Springsteen. Small wonder. Whatever his delicate intentions, Springsteen did inadvertently became the patron saint for the self-pitying white male convinced that whiteness and maleness are in crisis, backs against the wall in a world that favours everyone but them. And seriously, if he was ever angry about the misinterpretation of "Born In The USA", then he should send back or redistribute 95% of the royalties he got for it. Nothing ironic about the way he kept all the money.

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      #27
      Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

      G.Man wrote:

      Those people's experiences of life probably differ much from those represented here (it does from mine; that's why I don't call Springsteen "The Boss"), but his ability to do so deserves greater respect than comparing his material to Jim Steinman songs, fun though those are...
      Hard to work out which part of that is more nauseatingly po-faced, the idea that Springsteen "deserves greater respect" or the throwaway condescension about Steinman's work of "fun though those are".

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        #28
        Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

        wingco - he made significant donations (tens of thousands of dollars) at every city played on the whole of the Born in The USA tour.

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          #29
          Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

          I was aware he'd turned down big money for the song to be used in ads, not him making other donations, must admit. Was that as atonement? I'm sure he was genuinely aghast, his record company perhaps less so - but it represents a colossal error of aesthetic judgment.

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            #30
            Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

            We've covered Thor before here and Springsteen's status as a poor man's Meat Loaf here.
            I am pleased to have sorted out the "sports business" question then.
            Is Vancouver always this nuts? I might pop over to Sports and ask
            Good grief, there's an accompanying song!

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              #31
              Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

              Hard to work out which part of that is more nauseatingly po-faced, the idea that Springsteen "deserves greater respect" or the throwaway condescension about Steinman's work of "fun though those are".
              I'm on record here as declaring myself a massive fan of Bat Out Of Hell, and I've put up spirited defences of Bad For Good in various forums. But if you compare either to the output of Springsteen, you might as well invoke Chas & Dave or Kylie Minogue as reference points.

              As for the "deserves greater respect" line, an on-line dictionary might be helpful in deciphering what I actually wrote before misquoting and then making a rather po-faced judgment yourself, Harry.

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                #32
                Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

                Twisted Sister wrote:
                On Monday night I was discussing with a colleague of rock whether he thought that DIO was playing Dragon Top Trumps with Jesus in heaven.
                Yet again Twisted Sister contributes the high point of any discussion. Made even better by the discovery that "Dragon Top Trumps" actually exists;

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                  #33
                  Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

                  G.Man wrote:
                  Hard to work out which part of that is more nauseatingly po-faced, the idea that Springsteen "deserves greater respect" or the throwaway condescension about Steinman's work of "fun though those are".
                  I'm on record here as declaring myself a massive fan of Bat Out Of Hell, and I've put up spirited defences of Bad For Good in various forums. But if you compare either to the output of Springsteen, you might as well invoke Chas & Dave or Kylie Minogue as reference points.
                  Ha ha, you are beyond satirisation. Your posts really do need to be read in a Brian Sewell voice for full effect.

                  As for the "deserves greater respect" line, an on-line dictionary might be helpful in deciphering what I actually wrote before misquoting and then making a
                  Ah, claiming a misquote where none exists, the last desperate gambit of a completely enervated argument. Your complete quote is in my original post and there's no possible distortion in the three words repeated directly below.

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                    #34
                    Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

                    Ha ha, you are beyond satirisation. Your posts really do need to be read in a Brian Sewell voice for full effect.
                    I've always thought that you read my posts in funny voices. Perhaps not doing that would help you better grasp the points I'm making.

                    Your admirable copy & paste chops notwithstanding, you still misquote me when you make an incomplete reference in your line about the idea that Springsteen "deserves greater respect". I didn't say that, and you know it. Do better.

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                      #35
                      Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

                      No really, go back and read my post, I quote you in full and then refer to three key words from that quote. It really would take a dullard (or someone desperately and incorrectly believing they can score some kind of point) to misinterpret it.

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                        #36
                        Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

                        Has Bruce really got a song called '4th of July'?
                        That's hilarious.
                        Let me guess, does it appear initially to be allno goddam socialist healthcare here, yet in reality subtly outlines the injustices of the American experience, but so subtle that no one really notices or cares?

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                          #37
                          Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

                          Calvert W. McCutcheon wrote:
                          Has Bruce really got a song called '4th of July'?
                          That's hilarious.
                          Let me guess, does it appear initially to be allno goddam socialist healthcare here, yet in reality subtly outlines the injustices of the American experience, but so subtle that no one really notices or cares?

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                            #38
                            Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

                            he also wrote "independence day".
                            you really should listen to both songs

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                              #39
                              Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

                              I like the old opening credits of Home and Away where Chachi from Happy Days is reading some kind of text book…the text book is removed to reveal a copy of a Magazine about the THE BOSS.

                              At least I think that’s what happened.

                              The Boss is so earnest isn’t he? What a guy.

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                                #40
                                Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

                                Yeah, he's so, like, blue collar, or something.
                                I guess.

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                                  #41
                                  Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

                                  The Australian soap, Home & Away?

                                  Have a look around, TS, is there a Tipp-ex bottle with its top off near you?

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                                    #42
                                    Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

                                    Hang on a minute. I can't stand Bruce Springsteen, but I think wingco's being unfair here. "Let nothing you produce be misinterpretable by idiots" would be a stultifying code for artists. (That's Laibach fucked off for a kickoff.)

                                    The lyrics of "Born In The USA" are pretty clear. And yes, they're in a sense "ironic", but I don't think they mean "America, eh, what a shithole", so much as "This is America, and this shouldn't be happening here".

                                    The Left in America tends to be patriotic, and I think the chorus is meant to be anthemic, and does its job well enough. The "irony" is in the way he juxtaposes those patriotic sentiments (which I think are meant to be sincere) with the bleak reality of the character's life.

                                    Not my cup of tea at all, but it's the kind of thing Steve Earle, whom I do like (as I may have mentioned) also does (though I think he does it better, because he's cleverer).

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                                      #43
                                      Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

                                      Bored of Education wrote:
                                      The Australian soap, Home & Away?

                                      Have a look around, TS, is there a Tipp-ex bottle with its top off near you?
                                      Yeah. The kid looked like Chachi.

                                      No I am not high. I do have trapped wind and that sometimes makes me act high.

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                                        #44
                                        Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

                                        Yes but surely the point is that Bruce must have known that there'd be a fair chance of misinterpretation of the message and that Grunts everywhere would be a whooping and a -hollerin' along as they killed to it.
                                        What's wrong with totally spelling it out for them?
                                        Well, nothing I suppose if you're more concerned with your career.

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                                          #45
                                          Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

                                          Why on Earth... wrote:
                                          Hang on a minute. I can't stand Bruce Springsteen, but I think wingco's being unfair here. "Let nothing you produce be misinterpretable by idiots" would be a stultifying code for artists. (That's Laibach fucked off for a kickoff.)

                                          The lyrics of "Born In The USA" are pretty clear. And yes, they're in a sense "ironic", but I don't think they mean "America, eh, what a shithole", so much as "This is America, and this shouldn't be happening here".

                                          The Left in America tends to be patriotic, and I think the chorus is meant to be anthemic, and does its job well enough. The "irony" is in the way he juxtaposes those patriotic sentiments (which I think are meant to be sincere) with the bleak reality of the character's life.
                                          I think WoE has nailed it here

                                          Much as I'm not a particular fan of the artist or song I think the issue of how it's been misinterpreted or exploited can be taken up with those who have been doing that rather than Springsteen. It's hardly lyrically ambivalent, after all.

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                                            #46
                                            Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

                                            All of that may be so, WoE and I'm sure that the irony intended in the lyrics, if read anything more than cursorily, is evident enough. And no, I wouldn't want some giant, flashing "IRONY ALERT" neon sign attached to anyone's lyrics. But this was Springsteen, and Springsteen being Springsteen, the USA being the USA (especially in the 80s), what happened happened - and really, it ought not to have come as a surprise that it happened. It backfired. He should have anticipated this and approached the topic in a different way lyrically.

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                                              #47
                                              Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

                                              Come on, artists shouldn't have to produce subtitles for the hard of thinking whatever their status.

                                              WoE rightly picked me up for my criticism of Florence and the Machine's apparently pro-domestic violence lyrics by saying that murder ballads cannot be held responsible for anyone killing their unfaithful partners and there is an element of that here.

                                              Similarly, you are falling into the territory of saying that Judas Priest or whoever should worry about how some yahoo in Buttfuck, Idaho is going to interpret their lyrics.

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                                                #48
                                                Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

                                                I don't remember doing that. But it's the sort of thing I might have done.

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                                                  #49
                                                  Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

                                                  Calvert's 'argument' basically seems to be that anything more subtle than Mississippi Goddam is out of bounds. California Uber Alles sounds pretty gung ho and patriotic if you only sing the chorus too.

                                                  Springsteen had been recording music for a decade, and selling large quantities of it for a few years before Born In The USA, I think he could reasonably have assumed intelligent people would have been able to analyse the song in the way Wyatt sets out (even if they didn't hear the verse!) Stupid and unreflecting people being stupid and unreflecting is not his fault or his responsibility.

                                                  Wingco is spot on about his analysis of all records Springsteen has made post Born In The USA, but wholly wrong if he extends that analysis to Nebraska or Darkness On The Edge Of Town.

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                                                    #50
                                                    Bruce Springsteen doc on BBC4

                                                    Incidentally, I don't think Born In The USA is ironic in any shape or form. It's entirely straightforward.

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