Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #26
    Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

    I kind of understand the dislike of Rangers and Celtic and I accept that when times get tough a percentage of those who attend matches just now will go play golf or watch Sky. At the same time both clubs have a large core who will watch them no matter who they are playing or where they are playing. I've attended reserve matches with well over 20,000 there, now I don't think for a minute you can expect that but a couple thousand won't be ridiculous particularly if the 'big' team isn't playing at the same time.

    Most of us do live in Scotland and most of us are actually football fans. I've been to St Mirren, Thistle, Petershill and Yoker in the last few seasons just to watch a game of football and I don't consider myself a die-hard, my days of not missing a match all season are well behind me. The current issue of WSC has an article from one of the biggest Rangers fans I know. He's visited every senior ground in Scotland. We've a lot of guys like him, football matters way too much to them. If our 'reserves' have a meaningful game and the first team doesn't he'll go, no question.

    Add to that the locals who actually support Rangers or Celtic and it will probably be the biggest crowd of the season for most of that division.

    Comment


      #27
      Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

      That's still missing the point. The extra fans they'll get in twice a season for such games won't begin to compensate for the drop-off entailed with no longer having a meaningful league at that level.

      Comment


        #28
        Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

        Actually, I've missed the point there too - it deosn't matter what the effect on attedances is, it's just not worth any distortion of the sport in order to get them. You might as well tell me that we can get more people through the gate if we don't play football at all but just host weekly editions of the X-Factor instead.

        Even if I didn't have any other issues with the Old Firm and Old Firm fans (and I'm not going to deny that I do) I just woduln't be interested in following such a league, it goes against most of what's important to me about it.

        Comment


          #29
          Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

          Exactly. Well put, Yoss.

          Comment


            #30
            Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

            I'm not missing any point I was simply answering the question DS asked.

            With respect divisions 1, 2 and 3 need reformed as much as the SPL does. Players are simply not moving through the leagues and haven't been for a while now. The last Scotland squad contained only two players, Dorrans and Hartley, who you could claim began their careers at lower league clubs and even then Hartley was at Hibs before going to Hamilton. If the goal of this is an attempt to improve the level of football being played at that division then it is worth discussing. I'm not sure if it will have a beneficial effect or not but I'm open to considering it.

            But please spare me the this holier than thou stuff. You support your team no matter who they play, anything else is just grandstanding.

            Comment


              #31
              Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

              Apologies for the tone of last couple of posts, didn't mean to be staking out the moral high ground.

              But I still disagree strongly. From whose point of view do the lower divisions "need" to be reformed? From our or from yours or from the national teams? There may be reasons why players are not moving up through the leagues but I think that's a general trend - look at the England World Cup squad and there are very few players who started life in lower division - do they need league restructure too? Or are there other reasons for that? Fiddling about with the leagues is the usual cheap answer to avoid confronting the biggest issue in Scottish footie - the imbalance of resources.

              On the last bit, it's really not grandstanding, honest. I would not continue to support my team in thos circumstances - certainly not in the games concerned and I'd be much less likely to continued following them at all in such a league. Maybe I'd be in the minority but I think it's be a noticeable minority.

              More importantly, football in general has no right to presume on such loyalty. Yes we may support teams and in theory stick with them for life, but in reality the turnover of actual matchgoing fans is much quicker than that, people move away, get families, jobs, other commitments or just lose interest. The hardcore of much of Raith's support are youngsters who were not regular at matches ten years ago, and we need that continual influx. If you devalue the league that will affect the lifeblood of the club and the game over the course of time, regardless of whether or not there are many pompous asses like me who will make conscious decisions as a point of principle.

              Comment


                #32
                Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

                Afrikaams wrote:
                Players are simply not moving through the leagues and haven't been for a while now.
                That just isn't true though. Speaking for my own team in the last year or so 4 players have moved from us to SPL clubs, and I can't imagine we're alone in that. We had two 13 year olds move to Hearts, a 15 year old to Rangers and a 17 year old move to Celtic. The difference between now and in the past is that most promising players from SFL teams often get a move before their 18th birthday, and as such they move to SPL youth teams and not their first teams. The movement between the leagues is far less visible but it does happen.

                Having said that I agree that the SFL needs to be reorganised, however it should be done,in my opinion, by bringing in a pyramid system involving Junior and non-league Senior teams rather than SPL reserves. I can't see the inclusion of SPL reserves doing anything other than distorting competition, devaluing the SFL and turning off many of the fans who currently go to watch their team week in, week out.

                Comment


                  #33
                  Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

                  Yoss the last England squad contained 9 players who began their careers outside the English top flight - Ben Foster, Joe Hart, Michael Dawson, Phil Jagielka, Gareth Barry, Adam Johnson, Ashley Young, Theo Walcott and Bobby Zamora.

                  Why should it be reformed and in whose benefit is a very fair question. What I see as beneficial and what you see may indeed be entirely different. For me any change brought in must be an attempt to improve Scottish footballers. I include the SPL in that. I'm not sure that's really been a priority before. I'm unsure about these changes but I can see some merit in allowing, in theory, 4 or more 'teams' of talented if inexperienced players into the professional leagues. I can see an argument why that might benefit the players involved in those leagues not just the selected '2nd' teams. If ultimately that lifted the standard of that league wouldn't that be of 'benefit' for all involved?

                  Currently there are four teams being mooted and I imagine Aberdeen and Dundee Utd would probably join in too at some point. I can see drawbacks, in the end if too many teams are involved it will by default simply become another 'reserve' league. We've had artificial parameters in Scottish football before such as ground redevelopment, we currently have a closed league system. In the scheme of Scottish football decisions I'm not sure this is the worst.

                  If the league is being run for the supporters, and I don't think it is or ever will be, then I can see your objections.

                  Dink, is that typical now then? Are third and second division clubs 'selling' youth players rather than first team ones. That seems a little pointless and contrary to what is being mooted here. Surely better a couple of seasons in Alloa's first team then in Hearts reserves.

                  I agree with you 100% on the pyramid system though.

                  Comment


                    #34
                    Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

                    My preference is for an elaborate pyramid system too, but I think that Scotland would need a separate model from the English system.

                    There's a huge difference in the number of clubs in the West of Scotland compared with any other 'direction', so that causes problems for the set-up of regional leagues in the pyramid, it's very complicated and difficult to devise a practical system.

                    Comment


                      #35
                      Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

                      Yeah, it seems to be pretty typical, bigger clubs are very pro-active in making sure that they get the best youths into their setups as soon as possible. The purpose of our youth system is two fold: firstly to develop exceptional talents, who we will most likely never see play for us but we'll receive money for; and, secondly, to develop a second teir of less talented players who can go on to play for our first team. We were lucky with Greig Spence we got see him make 8 starts and 14 sub appearances for us, most of the best players from our youth team we'll never see play for the first team.

                      Comment


                        #36
                        Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

                        Afrikaams wrote:
                        Yoss the last England squad contained 9 players who began their careers outside the English top flight - Ben Foster, Joe Hart, Michael Dawson, Phil Jagielka, Gareth Barry, Adam Johnson, Ashley Young, Theo Walcott and Bobby Zamora.
                        Come again?

                        Comment


                          #37
                          Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

                          Yeah, some of those either actually started their senior careers in the top flight or moved there a such a young age that it would be a bit of a stretch to claim they'd moved through the leagues. (Whereas from Scotland you missed out Weir and Webster, and there are others such Robson who progressed from lower leagues regardless of the fact he'd been released by Rangers as a kid.)

                          Dundee United are using the lower leagues very well, between players they bought from there like Conway and Swanson, and otehrs who've been loaned out - Goodwillie, Russell etc. They've got some good kids out on loan at the moment too, like the McCord brothers.

                          But it's
                          I can see an argument why that might benefit the players involved in those leagues not just the selected '2nd' teams. If ultimately that lifted the standard of that league wouldn't that be of 'benefit' for all involved?
                          that's the real point of disagreement.
                          No, it wouldn't, is the short answer.

                          I agree a pyramid would be of much more benefit, but here again, as an SFL fan, I'm guilty of the same thing I'm accusing the SPL of - wanting to design the leagues below mine in such a way as would most benefit us (or at least what I perceive as "the game as a whole") rather than the clubs concerned. If they - particularly Junior clubs - don't want to be involved and are happy the way they are then fair play. And it seems lots of them have no interest in such a pyramid - or at leas, not enough interest to make them willing to make the considerable compromises that would be involved.

                          Comment


                            #38
                            Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

                            So, it seems that the Back to the Future approach of a 10 team top division is the favoured route of the Old Firm, and Henry McLeish following a review of all the options. Options not helped by the utterly un-negotiable certainty that the ugly sisters MUST play each other 4 times per season, to maximise TV revenue. And with 11 votes required (out of 12) to pass any proposals, it is difficult to get any consensus, and we look set to trundle on through another few decades of old firm dominance...

                            However, a Plan B has emerged from some provincial teams (ie a team from any city which isnt Glasgow). Plan B is "find a way that someone other than Rangers/Celtic have a chance to win the championship".

                            So, end-of-season-top-of-the-table-play-offs it is then.

                            according to the scotsman

                            A splendidly ridiculous, UEFA co-efficient-destroying idea for those ABR&C minded of us. ie everyone else.

                            Comment


                              #39
                              Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

                              They had this system in Rugby League in Australia when I lived there. It baffled me then and seemed intrinsically unfair where (in there case) the team that finished 8th could win the 'league'. It basically means the league becomes the cup and the winner of the cup gets all the spoils. Apart from the absurdity of the idea it will kill the Scottish Cup dead. but to be fair the Aussies loved it and their league didn't seem to suffer for it.

                              In terms of the ten team league, which I've yet to hear anyone who doesn't actually work for a club support, it might be nice to hear Stephen Thomson (or any other team Chairman, I'm choosing him as he's become the modern day Wallace Mercer) come out and say he'd support a league where everyone plays each other twice. It's all very well blaming the Old Firm for the four games nonsense but it's actually every other team in the league that wants it. In reality Rangers and Celtic would probably be the least affected financially by moving to a larger league where everyone plays twice.

                              I thought league reconstruction was a 10 - 2 vote?

                              Comment


                                #40
                                Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

                                according to the bbc, 11 out of 12 is needed in matters of reconstruction:

                                bbc link

                                however, i have checked the SPL constitution here and it says:

                                Special Qualified Resolutions (83%)
                                (e) any expansion of the League by the addition or admission of new
                                members (other than as a result of the operation of the Rules
                                governing promotion/relegation between the League and the SFL);
                                (f) any reduction in the number of members of the League (other than as
                                a result of a member ceasing to be a member of the League in
                                accordance with the Rules and/or these Articles);
                                (g) the allotment and issue of a Share;
                                so 9.96 members out of 12 have to be in favour for league reconstruction. i'll let the bbc know forthwith.

                                Comment


                                  #41
                                  Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

                                  Rangers have a note from their mother excusing them from week 3 of season 2011/12 to enable them to play a friendly against Chelsea (who says either half of the old firm pander to the lowest common demoninator). I wonder if the Chelsea fans will create the same havoc in Glasgow as they did in Manchester at the UEFA cup final in 2008...

                                  The SPL ruling which allows this excused absence was brought in to enable Celtic to fulfil fixtures agreed prior to the publication of the new season matches, in Dublin (who says either half of the old firm pander to the lowest common denominator).

                                  Meanwhile, a battle of words has broken out between Rangers' boards old and new about the new owners' suitability for the role. Although, actually does anyone know who the owners actually are?

                                  Craig Whyte is the figurehead and public face of the new owners, but the end shareholding of the new entity owning them is unknown. Little is known of Whyte's true background either which has led to a fair amount of speculation as to the actual depth of his pockets - which is the sole owner-suitability measurement being used by the media here. There is probably quite a big story here, if only someone in the mainstream Scottish media was prepared to risk some feather ruffling by asking a few pertinent questions.

                                  Comment


                                    #42
                                    Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

                                    I met Whyte on Monday at Ibrox as he was going around on a sacking spree.

                                    Comment


                                      #43
                                      Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

                                      I think we should start a new thread where we try and guess what job Torres has, I've known footballers who spent less time at grounds than Torres seems to.

                                      BG I'm not sure if playing a friendly against one of the best teams in England can be classed as 'lowest common denominator'. Playing it 3 weeks into the season certainly deserves criticised though, it does kind of miss the point about pre-season friendlies as well.

                                      I love that site you linked to, the Rangers tax case one, I'm always astonished just how much time people invest in that type of thing, it's really sad. They shouldn't be allowed anonymity though, anyone that obsessed should be forced into the public realm so health professionals can keep tabs on them.

                                      Comment


                                        #44
                                        Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

                                        HAHA, I'm no starfucker that's for sure.I work in buildings maintenance and I do about three days a month at Ibrox and about two days at Murray Park, all my other time at football grounds is spent watching football.I check the fixtures for the week on a Monday and then make my choices from there.

                                        The only reason I was talking to Whyte was because I could see he was hopelessly lost in the Govan Stand.

                                        Comment


                                          #45
                                          Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

                                          torres wrote:

                                          The only reason I was talking to Whyte was because I could see he was hopelessly lost in the Govan Stand.
                                          I wonder if that's a prophetic metaphor.

                                          Comment


                                            #46
                                            Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

                                            When are the fixtures out?

                                            Comment


                                              #47
                                              Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

                                              Right here, scotprem.com will also see you sorted.

                                              Comment


                                                #48
                                                Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

                                                A full set of fixtures on Christmas Eve.

                                                Comment


                                                  #49
                                                  Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

                                                  Looks like Arbroath - East Fife's my best bet.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #50
                                                    Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

                                                    Right, I need decent tips on who are going to win Scottish Leagues 1, 2 and 3 next season, because being English I have absolutely no idea. Our works season predictor thingy is worth about £500 to the winner, but it's based on successfully predicting which teams in each of the 8 divisions in the leagues in England and Scotland will earn the most points and most goals (1 competition point per league point, 1 per goal).

                                                    I'm guessing there's the usual fag paper in a prediction like that for the SPL, but if there are obvious favourites (or even 2 or 3 clear candidates) for the lower leagues please let me know. Have to put my entry in by the end of next week, and if I win thanks to your confident help there'll be an OTFathon round of drinks at least on its way next May.

                                                    Comment

                                                    Working...
                                                    X