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**Yoss** · 17-09-2010, 23:16

Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

Fourteen teams is a daft size for a league, but the reserve teams thing would be the killer, I'd have no interest in following a league thus compromised even if there were no further implications of having the old firm involved.

**torres** · 18-09-2010, 13:39

Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

Agree with you on this Yoss, I would opt for two divisions of 20 playing each other twice and a third tier of ten with promotion to and from the non-league sector.

**The Exploding Vole** · 20-09-2010, 09:00

Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

My heart sinks.

**Gangster Octopus** · 20-09-2010, 09:10

Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

Christ.

**Banana Banana** · 20-09-2010, 13:44

Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

You'd think old firm reserve side would get more of a match against other SPL reserve sides than if they were playing Stranraer or Brechin.

Old Firm Turkey shoots dominating 2 leagues does not sound like a recipe for success.

I don't understand why the Old Firm don't follow teams in Holland, Scandinavia and Portugal by bringing on their own talent to sell to richer leagues. Surely that's got to be a more constructive solution than waiting for a handout from the English Premier?

**Deus Ex Machina** · 20-09-2010, 14:54

Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

That of all the possible solutions to league restructure they'd make this one public is highly depressing and doesn't really fill me with confidence for the future.

I can't imagine much media opposition to this seeing as their current position seems to be 'who gives a shit about the SFL?' and because no doubt the Old Firm fans are by and large behind this.

**The Exploding Vole** · 21-09-2010, 11:44

Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

How the hell can SPL clubs not afford to run a reserve league of their own?

**AMMS** · 21-09-2010, 12:17

Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

The Exploding Vole wrote:

How the hell can SPL clubs not afford to run a reserve league of their own?

I don't think it was a money issue but a quality issue. The 'reserves' weren't seen as competitive and were simply being used to keep 1st team squad members ticking over. The feeling was that could be done on an informal basis.

What's tended to happen at Rangers these days is youth and under 21 teams from a wide variety of clubs come and play. We've had teams from Holland, Ireland, England and Australia so far this season as well as all over Scotland. Any games for the 1st team are usually bounce games against other West of Scotland based clubs. I imagine this is typical for most clubs in the SPL.

Banana Banana, I'd say you haven't been paying much attention to the comings and goings of players at the OF in recent seasons.

There is a danger of anti-Old Firm hysteria here. The reserves in division 3 thing is making the headlines but in reality what difference will that really make? Do you think Old Firm youth teams, which is what they'll be (and Hibs and Hearts too), will be significantly better than the teams in those leagues? Will they reduce crowds or lower the standard of football?

I'm not sure this will solve much either but it isn't just the Old Firm who demand 4 games a season.

**Banana Banana** · 21-09-2010, 12:44

Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

I know Rangers and Celtic have both been better at developing players and are now starting to get the financial rewards for doing so. It is the only model that can possibly work for them, other than waiting for someone in England to fill their boots with gold.

Will old firm youth/sqaud players be significantly better than teams currently n SFL2? Yes, miles better, they will be full-time and the best young players, along with a few spare squad member pros.

**AMMS** · 21-09-2010, 14:43

Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

I'm not sure they'll be miles better. They should be fitter certainly and probably more naturally talented footballers but experience is a big factor in professional football and shouldn't be overlooked. There is also an intensity and physicality that exists in first team professional games that simply doesn't exist in youth football. A journeyman pro will be as able as a talented but raw youngster more often than not.

I can see why many don't like the idea (of second teams) I'm just saying I don't think it is as damaging as some fear it might be.

**Yoss** · 21-09-2010, 18:27

Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

I'd expect Celtic or Rangers reserve sides to win such a league.

But that's neither here nor there, it wouldn't matter how well or how badly they did, the damage is done by havign teams there competing on different terms and for different reasons. The whole thing is devalued.

**Guest** · 21-09-2010, 19:05

Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

This is already happening in Germany (3rd tier), France (4th tier) and Spain (2nd tier)

**Yoss** · 21-09-2010, 19:44

Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

Yup, and relative to the size of the countries none of those lot have either the tradition or strength in depth of lower league football as we do here in the UK.

**ursus arctos** · 21-09-2010, 19:55

Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

I'd add "professional" before "Lower league" there, Yoss.

And if you read the German thread, you will see that there is significant and growing opposition to the reserve clubs in the 3. Liga.

**Yoss** · 22-09-2010, 11:48

Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

I did mean league as opposed to non-league, but I appreciate those concepts don't always translate directly so yeah, you can insert whatever word best makes the point.

**The Exploding Vole** · 22-09-2010, 12:59

Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

There really should be a four-team SPL involving the Old Firm and their reserve teams. Then maybe everyone would start to understand the importance of the rest of the Scottish game.

**blameless** · 22-09-2010, 13:05

Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

There is a danger of anti-Old Firm hysteria here.

Too right there is. Not content with fucking up their own league, they want to wreck the two divisions below it as well.

The SFL is there to provide a league structure for SFL teams and their fans, not to bail out the intellectual pygmies of the SPL or save a bit of money for the two greediest clubs in the country.

**Deus Ex Machina** · 22-09-2010, 13:10

Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

Afrikaams wrote:

I'm not sure they'll be miles better. They should be fitter certainly and probably more naturally talented footballers but experience is a big factor in professional football and shouldn't be overlooked. There is also an intensity and physicality that exists in first team professional games that simply doesn't exist in youth football. A journeyman pro will be as able as a talented but raw youngster more often than not.

I'm not sure that the Old Firm will have considered this, or be to happy to put their crop of youth players at the mercy of some of the Third Division's most crunching tackles. Or they might prefer that they get some genuine experience.

**The Exploding Vole** · 23-09-2010, 10:38

Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

Aberdeen 3, Raith 2. Lightning rarely strikes twice.

**AMMS** · 23-09-2010, 12:00

Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

Who do you feel doesn't understand that importance just now?

(To the Exploding Vole)

**AMMS** · 23-09-2010, 12:05

Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

blameless wrote:

There is a danger of anti-Old Firm hysteria here.

Too right there is. Not content with fucking up their own league, they want to wreck the two divisions below it as well.

The SFL is there to provide a league structure for SFL teams and their fans, not to bail out the intellectual pygmies of the SPL or save a bit of money for the two greediest clubs in the country.

Are the divisions below the SPL doing OK just now then? It doesn't seem that way but I'm relatively removed from them so I could be wrong.

I'd argue that for once this isn't to do with money (the second team bit) and actually from a financial perspective might actually benefit teams in that league.

**AMMS** · 23-09-2010, 12:17

Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

D.S. wrote:

Afrikaams wrote:

I'm not sure they'll be miles better. They should be fitter certainly and probably more naturally talented footballers but experience is a big factor in professional football and shouldn't be overlooked. There is also an intensity and physicality that exists in first team professional games that simply doesn't exist in youth football. A journeyman pro will be as able as a talented but raw youngster more often than not.

I'm not sure that the Old Firm will have considered this, or be to happy to put their crop of youth players at the mercy of some of the Third Division's most crunching tackles. Or they might prefer that they get some genuine experience.

They have considered it and that's why they want it. You get crunching tackles at all levels and the sooner a player figures out how to deal with them the better. Most SPL clubs send young players out on loan just now for that very reason. The 'standard' in Div 2 is higher than reserve or youth team football and that's why they want it.

**Deus Ex Machina** · 23-09-2010, 12:38

Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

That's fair enough, I didn't know how that would tie-in with the idea of 'protecting young players' but that makes sense.

What sort of support are these teams likely to have? More to the point, likely to bring?

**The Exploding Vole** · 23-09-2010, 12:45

Scottish Football 2011-2012 Season

Oh I'm sure there will be thousands of Old Firm fans who can't wait to follow their reserve teams to places like Forfar and Stranraer.

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