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**ursus arctos** · 17-09-2010, 17:07

College (ice) hockey

That's terrific. Your winter is now set.

I wonder if you will see the non-Big Ten parts of the two conferences merge. Four major conferences seems right to me.

I'm really looking forward to getting back into college hockey this season. And FSNorth is supposed to be streaming Minnnesota High School Hockey (both regular season and playoffs).

**Reed John** · 17-09-2010, 18:03

College (ice) hockey

Minnesota High school hockey is fantastic. Massachusetts has some good high school teams, but not much in the public schools so it's not something that communities get behind. There's some good private school programs in Minnesota too, but they also have some tiny public schools like Warroad or Virgina-Mount Iron-Buhl (yes, that's one team) that just come out of the woods to beat all-comers.

There's a lot of concern about what Big Ten hockey will mean to the existing rivalries that are only in hockey. Financially, it actually probably means more to places like Lake Superior or Duluth that they get to play Michigan and Minnesota than it does to the big schools. Like why the SPL need Rangers and Celtic, even though they're irritating in other ways.

The problem with merging what remains out of the CCHA and WCHA is that would be about 20 teams. A bit too many. But maybe something can be worked out. I can't imagine the Big Ten letting in "hockey only" schools to balance it out but it's not impossible. North Dakota and Miami of Ohio would be good choices if they go that route.

Another possibility would be if Notre Dame joins the Big Ten for everything, that would mean seven hockey teams. Unlikely, but possible. Also, Illinois is on par with Penn State's club hockey team. Maybe they'll be inspired to make the jump. But no other Big Ten school appears to be remotely contemplating it, although newest member Nebraska would be a good fit. UNO is already D1, so it makes sense that the flagship school could be D1. The USHL's Lincoln Stars and Omaha Lancers draw well.

I think Penn State will join the CCHA. That would make sense. The CCHA has an opening since UNO joined the WCHA (sensibly) and it has Ohio State, Michigan, and Michigan State, plus a few other teams in Ohio, so its a good fit geographically (except having to play Alaska-Fairbanks, of course). The ECAC would be ok too, but doesn't have the three big ten teams or the opening. Hockey East is too far away (Maine is not going to want to play here). The CHA has the other two Pennsylvania teams (Robert Morris and Mercyhurst) but they're basically the WAC of college hockey. That would show a lack of ambition.

The sad part is that this will pretty much be the end of the current club team and, apparently, eventually the end of the existing facility, which is very nice as those kind of small rinks go. The club team is more than just a "sports club" like the ultimate team or the karate club. It has paid coaches and a whole staff of students who do the marketing and what not to get experience that leads them to jobs in pro sports. It's a great model for what a college club can be. There will probably still be a club hockey program, but it's not going to get the kind of booster support it does now. That money will go to the D1 team, I suspect.

But all of those people, including the players, are really stoked about this. The long-time coach, Joe Batista, who won 7 ACHA titles, has been instrumental in making this D1 team happen. The stepped down as coach a few years back to take a job with the University's fund-raising department. That was the first sign that this was really maybe going to happen. So it's not like this wasn't part of their plan all along, but there's no way the current coach is going to be hired for the D1 team. They'll need a "name" who can recruit nationally, in Canada and even in Europe.

I hope some of the players who are on the club team are able to try out for the new team. They're not really good enough, but some of the best ones might be able to hold their own and I imagine it would be nice to have a few upperclassmen when starting a new team.

Creative destruction, innit.

**UmbroAmericano** · 08-01-2011, 14:50

College (ice) hockey

This is an old thread, but there was news on this recently on my campus (Wisconsin). At a luncheon, the Big Ten commissioner said that with the addition of Penn State, Big Ten hockey is a near-certainty, but that it could exist "within" the existing conferences, with the six teams competing simultaneously for trophies in two leagues. That would leave Penn State open to join any of the existing leagues, including the eastern ones, in addition to the Big Ten hockey league. If the Big Ten becomes a stand-alone league, the WCHA has offered Wisconsin and Minnesota a guaranteed non-conference schedule that would keep all the rivalries intact, and the CCHA could do similar with Michigan, Michigan State and Ohio State. So the change to college hockey from Penn State's ramp-up might not be as seismic as originally thought, or in some circles, feared.

Indiana is studying Division I hockey. That could make things more interesting.

Not sure how many US college hockey fans lurk around here, but I thought Reed would be interested to know at least, if he hasn't heard already. This is my 30th year as a season ticket holder for Wisconsin hockey.

**Reed John** · 08-01-2011, 21:19

College (ice) hockey

Thanks for that info. I hadn't heard that story. I think having the BigTen alongside the existing conferences, like the FA Cup is alongside the league competitions, is a good idea. I think PSU would fit best in the CCHA.

It's good that D1 hockey is coming now, because PSU's ACHA team sucks right now. They may not even make the national tournament now. That's never happened. I don't know if it's coaching (they've gone downhill without Battista) or some problem with recruiting. But next year is the last before the D1 team starts so it's moot.

Lots of speculation on who we can get as coach. We'll want somebody with some cache. I guess they'll need to hire him at least a year before the team starts.

Without a strong NCAA loyalty with a team, in college hockey I've supported the Minnesota Gophers because that's my best friend's favorite team and the BU Terriers because I went to grad school there. I also root against BC, Ohio State, and Michigan. Cake-eaters.

But those loyalties are weak. I can't wait for PSU to have a D1 team.

I've been to the WCHA tourneyat the X twice. Once I saw Minn beat UND in the final. That was back when the Gophers had Vanek and Goligosky et al and were good. They've fallen off. Lucia is on the hot seat.

Wisconsin has great tradition as a team, but not many top players come drom the state, oddly. UW recruits tons of players from Minnesota. Then the one great prospect from Madison, Kessel, picked the Gophers. That had to grate on Badger fans.

**ursus arctos** · 08-01-2011, 22:53

College (ice) hockey

Thanks for resurrecting the thread, Umbro.

I've written about our trip to Yale last week on the NHL thread, and Princeton is up tomorrow. Yale were very impressive, and it's interesting to see how far the game has come since I was a regular at Harvard in the late 70s (it's also interesting how terrible we are this season, just when Eli gets good.).

**danielmak** · 09-01-2011, 01:47

College (ice) hockey

In terms of TV coverage, if you have DirecTV with a sports package, there's enough college hockey to keep one occupied. The Fox RSNs show games, NHL Network will show some games, BTN shows some games, and then there are some other college networks.

EDIT: Just as I posted this, FS Detroit is currently airing Michigan v. Michigan State and FCS (perhaps a Fox overflow channel--617) is airing Robert Morris v. North Dakota.

EDIT X 2: Here is a good site for TV listings. It looks like there are about 4-6 games each weekend and more as it gets to the business end of the season.

**UmbroAmericano** · 09-01-2011, 14:31

College (ice) hockey

Reed John wrote:

Wisconsin has great tradition as a team, but not many top players come drom the state, oddly. UW recruits tons of players from Minnesota. Then the one great prospect from Madison, Kessel, picked the Gophers. That had to grate on Badger fans.

Wisconsin isn't a hockey state - in winter it's basketball. When UW started its program in the 1960s there were only about 30 Wisconsin high school hockey programs. People thought it was crazy UW would have a hockey program at all - there wasn't even a campus ice facility. But the coach we hired from Colorado College in 1966, Bob Johnson, turned out to be one of the greatest hockey minds and motivators of all time. And the off-campus arena turned out to be a blessing, because it meant the fans could drink beer, unlike at the football and basketball games, where beer was banned due to Big Ten campus rules (and the teams were losing to boot). The hockey team drew deafening sellout crowds right away, Johnson started picking players off from Minnesota and western Canada to come play in the exciting atmosphere, and Wisconsin became virtually unbeatable at home. The WCHA admitted us in 1969, the next year we were in the NCAA tournament, by 1973 we won it, and no school has won more titles since, to the endless chagrin of our Minnesota neighbors, where hockey is much more a part of the state fabric. Wisconsin still lags behind other schools in terms of homegrown talent, though we're catching up a bit. The program was built on beer and Badger Bob.

Wisconsin wasn't made for Phil Kessel. You have to play both ends of the ice and you have to be in world-class condition. We're not about flash and raw talent. That's Minnesota. (grin)

**Reed John** · 10-01-2011, 16:29

College (ice) hockey

You can say that now, but Wisconsin recruited Kessel hard, so it's not like the Badgers didn't want him. But I actually think he was regarded as kind of a bust at Minnesota. He left before he really developed into a complete player.

I noticed the Phil Kessel's sister plays (very well) for Minnesota (the UM-MSU women's game was on the Big Ten Network. I saw my friend and his family in the crowd and called him so next time it went that way he waved to me) and Kessel's brother plays for UNH. So UW failed to attract them either. Something personal with the family?

Minnesota has been having a hard time lately. They seem to get some outstanding players that only last one year (or less) but haven't been getting guys like Vanek and Leopold who are NHL caliber, but stick around long enough to develop into a decent team.

The Gophers historically only took players from Minnesota and they still mostly stick to that. Marriucci regarded recruiting Canadians as a kind of cheating, I guess. There's a lot of talent in Minnesota, but there are also a lot of D1 programs around so Minnesota can't just load up. I don't know why anyone would rather spend their winters in St. Cloud, Duluth, Bemiji, Makato, or Grand Forks than Minneapolis or Madison but an awful lot of good players do.

I knew about Bob Johnson, but not about the beer. I also didn't know that Wisconsin didn't have a program until the 1960s. I figured it always had enough Minnesotans to have hockey, with the reciprocity and all of that.

It's odd that Wisconsin isn't into more hockey since it has Minnesota on one side and Michigan on the other and Chicago has historically supported hockey fairly well. We discussed this earlier and TG suggested it was because Wisconsin is primarily German while Minnesota and, I guess, Michigan, had more Scandinavians.

I couldn't tolerate that. I really don't like basketball at all.

**ursus arctos** · 10-01-2011, 16:42

College (ice) hockey

It's common for non-natives to expect Wisconsin and Minnesota to be more alike than they actually are. There certainly is a shared progressive, Northern European vibe to a certain extent, but the fact that each state still reflects the strong influence of the once-dominant ethnic group (Scandinavians for MN, Germans for WI) explains some of the differences. So does the rise of the Twin Cities as the regional metropolis (and the relative decline of Milwaukee).

Umbro, do you have an explanation for why UM is not regarded anywhere near as highly academically as Madison or Ann Arbor? I used to wonder if the small liberal arts colleges (Macalester, St. Olaf, Gustavus, etc) skimmed off a disproportionate amount of talent, but I have no idea if that's true.

Very good game in Princeton yesterday, with the Tigers coming away with a 5-4 win. Colgate are much better than their last place record indicates and if the comparison between Colgate and Holy Cross is any guide, this is definitely a year in which the ECAC has the edge over Hockey East.

Not that that is going to help us in the Beanpot, of course.

**Reed John** · 10-01-2011, 16:53

College (ice) hockey

Colgate are much better than their last place record indicates and if the comparison between Colgate and Holy Cross is any guide, this is definitely a year in which the ECAC has the edge over Hockey East.

What does that have to do with anything? Holy Cross is not in Hockey East last time I looked.

The ECAC is better than it has been. Traditionally it was always the worst of the big four conferences. But in the current pairwise, both conferences have five teams in the top 25. HE has two in the top ten, but Yale is still number 1. Hard to believe. It's also hard to believe that Union, Merrimack, Notre Dame, Rennselear, and Ferris State are ranked so high while Michigan State, Maine, BU, and Minnesota are ranked so low, but I guess it's good that there's some ebb and flow. It gives hope that Penn State can find a way up the ladder.

Remember when Lake Superior State was a hockey power? What happened?

Minnesota is a great university with lots of fantastic stuff going on - top place for medical device development and has the top wheat rust lab, for example - but maybe isn't as well known for whatever reason and maybe doesn't attract the same quality of undergrad applicants, perhaps.

I don't really know. I don't have much data on any of those places. The only kid from my high school class who went to Madison was kind of a dumb shit, to be honest. Most of the dumb shits in my class just went to Penn State or Shippensburg et al to save money, but his parents were wealthy.

My friend from Minneapolis (well, Minnetonka-Hopkins) said that not many of his classmates went to UM or even applied. With the reciprocity deal, most of his classmates wanted to go to Madison because it was further from their parents and more of a "college town," whereas Minnesota is a more urban vibe (although I walked across the campus there a few years ago and thought it looked like any other Big Ten campus). But of course, that urban vibe attracts some people.

**UmbroAmericano** · 10-01-2011, 17:15

College (ice) hockey

The Scandinavian vs. German-Polish ethnic background is one factor in Wisconsin being a basketball state while Minnesota is hockey. Minnesota has better natural ice for more of the year, being largely farther north, flatter, and away from the Great Lakes. Minnesota has a long border with Canada and we have none. There's the influence of UW having been a basketball powerhouse in the early days, then Marquette, and now both (though UW students prefer hockey). The Milwaukee metro has a large African-American population and lots of cross-pollination with Chicago, while Minnesota-St. Paul is probably the whitest metro of its size or larger in the U.S. - not to stereotype, but how many black players do you see in the NHL?

Minnesota is a really solid school academically, not far behind UW, maybe the next-best Big Ten school behind Northwestern, Michigan and us. However Minnesota's academic reputation lags behind the reality because UW and Michigan have national student bodies and vibrant campus life while U of M draws heavily from its own metro area with many students living at home. When Minnesota visits for games our students chant "commuter school" and that's a national perception problem for them. Both schools lose plenty of players to the Duluths and Mankatos on the academic score, but it hurts Minnesota more because they are reluctant to recruit outside the state, as Reed points out.

Rebuilding year on the ice for UW; major losses to graduation and the NHL. We've won seven in a row and we're up in the rankings but I fear it's a mirage due to the quality of recent competition. We needed a goal with eight seconds left in OT at home the other night to beat Canisius. It was exciting to watch but also horrifying, like a slasher movie where the good guy barely survives.

**ursus arctos** · 10-01-2011, 17:24

College (ice) hockey

Ah, Holy Cross is in the Atlantic. Apologies.

I think it is just more difficult for the Lake Superiors of the world to compete on a consistent basis. If a kid has a chance of playing at a Big Ten school, he'll go there. And if he's Canadian, he'll go somewhere that is more different from what he's grown up with.

I don't get Ferris State. I wonder if they are taking people who can't even get into Michigan State. Northern Michigan makes a bit more sense from a geographic perspective.

Umbro, there are more black guys in the NHL than there ever have been. And Atlanta seems to have half of them, which is not in any way coincidental.

**Reed John** · 10-01-2011, 17:28

College (ice) hockey

but how many black players do you see in the NHL?

We did this one on the NHL thread, I think.

We also have had a few threads on rankings of universities and so forth. My summary feeling is that far too much ink, time, and anxiety is wasted on rankings and concerns about "prestige." Experiences vary so much from student to student, from department to department, etc.

Although if I were in your position, hoping to attract students to my school, which happens to fair well in most of these comparisons, I would keep that opinion to myself.

**ursus arctos** · 10-01-2011, 17:30

College (ice) hockey

Also worth noting that Wisconsin has had a NBA team for a long time, whereas the T-Wolves are still relatively new. And while Wisconsin was NBA-only, Minnesota had two serious teams during the WHA years (the Fighting Saints were probably more solid than the Whalers, but got passed over because of the North Stars).

**UmbroAmericano** · 10-01-2011, 17:47

College (ice) hockey

True, there are more black players than ever in hockey - UW had a recent great one in Robbie Earl - but still, the African American participation pales next to basketball. So to speak.

The NBA point is a better one than you may think. Lots of fans don't know the Bucks are not our first NBA team - we had the Hawks in the '50s before they decamped for St. Louis and then Atlanta. This was before my time, but according to my father the Hawks had a decent following in Milwaukee despite the team being terrible on the court, which is one reason the league later expanded to Milwaukee with the Bucks.

The college rankings have some relationship to reality and some problems. It's hard to equate a giant research university like Wisconsin with a national liberal arts college like Notre Dame. For some top students the galaxy of faculty a school like Wisconsin can support makes it a better choice than smaller schools farther up the rankings. For some students Wisconsin would be a poorer choice than even a second- or third-tier liberal arts college. The handful of schools that have both the billion-dollar research operation and the small undergrad college deserve to be at the top - the Ivies, Northwestern, Carnegie, Chicago.

**Reed John** · 10-01-2011, 17:48

College (ice) hockey

Minneapolis had the Lakers, but I don't know how long.

The college rankings have some relationship to reality and some problems. It's hard to equate a giant research university like Wisconsin with a national liberal arts college like Notre Dame. For some top students the galaxy of faculty a school like Wisconsin can support makes it a better choice than smaller schools farther up the rankings. For some students Wisconsin would be a poorer choice than even a second- or third-tier liberal arts college. The handful of schools that have both the billion-dollar research operation and the small undergrad college deserve to be at the top - the Ivies, Northwestern, Carnegie, Chicago

All of that makes perfect sense (But I'm still glad I didn't go to an Ivy, Northwestern, Carnegie-Mellon or Chicago.) I think the problem is that the rankings are based on a sort of cumulative value of everything the university does, which matters to presidents and provosts, but individual students and faculty really only care about one small part of it. There is something to be said for the overall "environment" or "culture" of a place, and that is a kind of overall sweeping kind of thing, but can still vary from department to department and building to building.

Getting back to the more important topic...

The D1 hockey landscape is rather varied and curious, especially with the dismantling of D-II and the, er, mantling of the smaller conferences Atlantic Hockey and the other one. You've got the big obvious places like Minnesota, but also some random ones like Alabama-Huntsville.

And in a lot of places, smaller schools have decided to get into the game as a chance to have a D1 program that fans will watch because they just can't ante-up in football, while their larger neighbor takes a pass. So while there's a bunch of teams in western New York, Syracuse isn't one of them. Robert Morris (in Pittsburgh) has D1 hockey, but Pitt doesn't. North Dakota is a power, but NDSU doesn't have a team. They used to be good at the ACHA level but have disappeared.

There are loads of D1 teams in Ohio, but I can't name any NHL players from Ohio.

**ursus arctos** · 10-01-2011, 18:02

College (ice) hockey

The Lakers left Minneapolis in 1960, when the Sixers were still the Syracuse Nationals, and the Pistons had only recently left Fort Wayne.

**Reed John** · 10-01-2011, 18:27

College (ice) hockey

And yet I wouldn't be surprised if there are more Lakers fans in Minneapolis than T-Wolves fans.

**ursus arctos** · 10-01-2011, 19:05

College (ice) hockey

NHL players from Ohio.

There's a reason why you didn't remember any of them.

Reed's dead right about college rankings; we've already started disparaging them to ursus minor.

Merrimack are another new Northeastern school, and just destroyed Maine (who are the most important team in the state, in any sport).

**Reed John** · 10-01-2011, 19:24

College (ice) hockey

Ohio- well all be damned. Not sure how many of them played juniors or high school in Ohio. That's the same with Pennsylvania, although a number of good players coming up through the Pittsburgh Hornets organization and I've noticed that the Pittsburgh papers are covering high school hockey more and more. The future looks good.

When I was at BU and following Hockey East closely, the feeling about both Merrimack and UMass-Lowell was "God bless 'em, they try, but are their programs going to survive?" But they have and started to do pretty well. Lowell especially had some rink issues. I don't know anything about Merrimack as a school. Catholic maybe? Not sure.

Another example of big schools not bothering with hockey until lately. UMass, the flagship school of the most populous New England state with tons of hockey, only started their D1 program in the mid-1990s.

If more schools like Penn State add hockey, the popularity of the game will grow, but it's possible that some of the smaller ones will fade away or, like Wayne State, give up. There's a push from the powerful programs to increase the scholarship limit from 18 to 20 or higher. As it is, every team is going to have a few walk-ons getting a lot of ice time. That's hard to deal with in recruiting so they want to change that. I can see both sides of the issue.

My hope is that instead of cutting programs, we'll see a rebirth of Division II.

**ursus arctos** · 10-01-2011, 19:28

College (ice) hockey

Merrimack is Catholic; that and the hockey team are all that I know about it.

**Reed John** · 10-01-2011, 19:45

College (ice) hockey

Their nickname is the Warriors, but they don't have any Indian imagery in their branding anymore. They used to be D-II (and won the D-II national title, I think) and remain D-II in every sport but hockey. It's in North Andover, but named, I guess, because that's in the Merimack River valley. That's all I've got.

**ursus arctos** · 10-01-2011, 20:01

College (ice) hockey

Was the Archdiocese looking to build a BC/Holy Cross/Merrimack triangle?

I have no idea.

A genuine Harvard hockey tragedy.

**UmbroAmericano** · 10-01-2011, 20:32

College (ice) hockey

Other than becoming more popular with fans and drawing better talent, college hockey hasn't changed much since I started following in the 1970s, and I hope it doesn't. I like that there are only 60 teams and most of them are competitive on a given night; I like the way that breeds familiarity and tradition and strong rivalries. I like that hockey doesn't have an early fan-ripoff portion of the schedule involving a parade of grossly undermanned schools brought in for no good reason other than to line the coffers of major programs. I like that it all happens on Friday and Saturday nights, and I love the two-game series structure that allows players and fans to stay the whole weekend. I like that a school such as Wisconsin can get all it can handle from a school like Mankato, and that a school like Michigan can have a spirited in-state rivalry with a Ferris. It's all very special and a throwback to the days when college was true amateur sport. Granted, it isn't perfect. Too many of the top players leave after one or two years for the pros, and the four major conferences are near the limit of their expansion, which makes it difficult for new programs and leagues to gain traction. But it's a far cry from the worst of what's happening in football and basketball. It was heartening to hear the Big Ten commissioner talk about keeping the existing conferences intact even as Big Ten hockey emerges. While the major conferences in other sports conspire to steal each others' schools and TV contracts. I feel fortunate to have gone to college at a hockey school.

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