OTF China Watch

[ursus arctos]

OTF China Watch

Of course, if you are using that measure, my own home country is one of the worst offenders (and the state of Texas is in the running in the per capita stakes).

The degree to which many Western "capitalists" see China as the saviour of their businesses is hard to underestimate. There have been definite echoes of the Eldorado legend in a number of management presentations that I've heard over the last decade. And it goes without saying that none of them even hinted at human rights abuses.

[Chairman Zhao]

OTF China Watch

Bored of Education wrote:

As China's and North Korea's figures on capital punishment are secret, it is difficult to compare the two in per capital terms or otherwise.

It was a bit specious perhaps of me to state China's position so absolutely. Let's say that China's human rights abuses are massive and certainly comparable to Cuba, North Korea etc and yet, like Saudi Arabia, it is treated much more favourably not only by the US but the "Western World" in general

Agreed, it's pretty much like that. If you have some use then people will choose to ignore the bad bits. As Chinese will point out that Japanese did their own version of the holocaust in World War 2, and the Japanese attempt to block history is commonly known as a 2nd holocaust. People at the time just didn't give two shits since Japan was important and still is, hence they are the most positively looked upon country in the western world despite their xenophobic tendencies.

[MsD]

OTF China Watch

interesting thread ..

China's investment and aid programme over the past decade or so is very interesting (and controversial). They've put huge amounts of money into Africa and to South America, being the largest foreign presence in Peru, for example, where their dominance of the mining industry and their rivalry of the nascent Peruvian textile market are heavily criticised.

The aid to Africa also raises questions. The Chinese are determinedly politically neutral; this can be seen as tacit support for dodgy regimes. They don't pretend altruistic motives, aid is for "mutual benefit", but then the philanthropic aid and investment programmes of the West have often proved anything but.

Just thought I'd throw that in, carry on.

[The Bean Counter]

OTF China Watch

In terms of human rights, the rate of capital punishment is only one measure, and as others have pointed out, it is unlikely that China is worse than North Korea on this. In fact, on every measure I can think of, North Korea comes out far worse:
China has some restrictions on internal movement, e.g. in Tibet. In North Korea, you need a police pass to leave your home village.
China has political prisoners, mainly pro-democracy activists and government protestors, who are imprisoned after secret trials. North Korea has over 150,000 political prisoners, most of whom are guilty by association, of people who are deemed to have opposed the regime, in labour/death/concentration camps.
China has the Great Firewall of China, and actively monitors its citizens' internet use. North Korea does not let its citizens anywhere near the internet.
Incidentally, I'm not sure I agree with China being treated more favourably in the West (though bang on about Saudi Arabia though). Most stories I read about China seem to be negative if anything, though having said that, human rights rarely get mentioned.

[Bored Of Education]

OTF China Watch

I regard Capital Punishment as the greatest human rights abuse but completely take on board your other points.

However, as far as your last paragraph is concerned, it isn't just a case of press coverage or even public government condemnation.

China generally has very few trade sanctions or embargoes against them, mostly arms embargoes after Tianamen Square. If they can carry on trading freely with the outside world and, as has been pointed out, taking over Africa financially, then there is no reason for them to curb any human rights violations

[Anton Gramscescu]

OTF China Watch

But isn't part of the problem that sanctions don't achieve much when applied against coiuntries which are large and have relatively diversified economies?

[MsD]

OTF China Watch

For a less critical view of Chinese-African investment and aid, your woman is Prof. Deborah Brautigam; for a good summary of the arguments see this review of her book (The Dragon's Gift). Link won't fit in text.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/the-dragons-gift-by-deborah-brautigam-1854588.html

Edit: I don't mean "less critical", I mean .. more positive, more balanced or whatever.

[The Bean Counter]

OTF China Watch

Good luck to them anyway, they'll be hard pushed to do more harm in Africa than Europe ever managed.

[ursus arctos]

OTF China Watch

But isn't part of the problem that sanctions don't achieve much when applied against coiuntries which are large and have relatively diversified economies?

Yes. Though the degree of kowtowing by the West has gone far beyond not implementing sanctions.

Bored, I'm interested in how you would apply that standard to the question at hand.

If a country has capital punishment (and executes a few people a year after rigorously fair trails), but is otherwise pristine from a human rights standpoint, is it "worse" in your book than a tremendously repressive state that does everything but execute its people?

[MsD]

OTF China Watch

henry wrote:

Good luck to them anyway, they'll be hard pushed to do more harm in Africa than Europe ever managed.

Indeed. Personally, like a lot of leftist people I don't really know what to think of China, but I'm aware of my ignorance (which I'm addressing) and I do check myself, and others, for latent sinophobia.

That said, all geopolitical shifts require scrutiny, including this, as China are gaining influence in other continents. That's not putting it in "yellow peril" terms, it could be a good, bad, or neutral thing.

[ursus arctos]

OTF China Watch

It's a complex and highly nuanced issue, and the one thing that you can say about most all "mainstream" media commentary on the subject is that it is superficial and biased.

I'm quite interested in the idea that the 21st century may be marked by the "re-emergence" of cultures that have a much, much longer time horizon than what has become current in the "West" in recent times. China is the number 1 example here, but you can look at the Pashtuns in the same light, for example.

[ad hoc]

OTF China Watch

Does capital punishment include people executed extra-judicially?

[Anton Gramscescu]

OTF China Watch

Is "kowtowing" is the right word, Ursus? I mean, it's not as though western leaders wander through Beijing going "wow, what a *great* system of human rights you have here...so much better than what we have at home". Many countries have made various forms of symbolic gestures against Chinese government repression (we gave the Dalai lama honourary citizenship a few years back, for instance - I'm sure there are other instances).

What's the real question we're asking here: what western actions would make a dent in the Chinese government's behaviour? Or what western actions would make us feel "not dirty" when dealing with China and its government?

(I'm trying to follow 112505's stricture about distingusihing between government and people, and I have to say it's kind of clunky.)

[ursus arctos]

OTF China Watch

I wasn't intending for the term to be factually precise, but I do think the image is generally valid.

After all, Obama refused to meet the Dalai Lama in the White House the first time he came to the US (something he rectified on his second visit).

[George]

OTF China Watch

I'm quite interested in the idea that the 21st century may be marked by the "re-emergence" of cultures that have a much, much longer time horizon than what has become current in the "West" in recent times. China is the number 1 example here, but you can look at the Pashtuns in the same light, for example.

Well China is well on it's way to becoming a world power due to a remarkable industrial revolution, whilst the area the Pathans inhabit is amongst the poorest and least developed regions in the world.
Once the United States and the other Western nations which are fighting there finally get sick of the thankless task which is trying to develop Afghanistan economically and politically, defeat the Taliban and stopping outside parties interfering enough to hamper these efforts we'll quickly pack up and go. Leaving the neighbouring regional powers to use it as an arena to fight proxy conflict. In that sense Pashtun culture is probably a lesson in endurance, but hardly success.

[Bored Of Education]

OTF China Watch

If a country has capital punishment (and executes a few people a year after rigorously fair trails), but is otherwise pristine from a human rights standpoint, is it "worse" in your book than a tremendously repressive state that does everything but execute its people?

To be honest, those two scenarios are way too hypothetical for me to be able to form a viewpoint (unless there actually two states like that)

Broadly, yes, a country that executes its citizens is worse. Again, it is a great hypothetical but I would rather have no vote than be under threat of being executed by the state that I live in.

This is leaving aside the wrongful conviction issue as well.

[ursus arctos]

OTF China Watch

Not for the first time, I see that we live in very different worlds.

There are a host of things that I would be (and am) much more concerned about than being "under threat of being executed by the state that I live in" (particularly if the judicial system is fair).

And not to be snarky, but you do realise that you just were subject to that "threat" when you were in Puerto Rico, don't you?

[ad hoc]

OTF China Watch

Can't give you a complete continuum end pair of countries that totally conform to Ursus's hypothetical, but I'd say Uzbekistan (in which the death penalty is abolished) and Japan (in which it is used, and where for example 7 people were executed in 2009) are fairly close to the opposite ends of the spectrum.

Like you I abhor the death penalty, but I'm struggling to imagine how Japan might be considered more abusive and "worse" in human rights terms than Uzbekistan

[Bored Of Education]

OTF China Watch

And not to be snarky, but you do realise that you just where subject to that threat when you were in Puerto Rico, don't you?

Bloody hell, worse than that, I was in Florida as well. PR doesn't have the death penalty, does it?

If I were brown skinned and used the London Underground regularly, I would be under threat of it here as well

[ursus arctos]

OTF China Watch

There's a federal death penalty that applies in the entire United States (including PR).

[Bored Of Education]

OTF China Watch

Like you I abhor the death penalty, but I'm struggling to imagine how Japan might be considered more abusive and "worse" in human rights terms than Uzbekistan

To be fair, those are great examples and, yes, in those terms, Uzbekistan is more repressive in day-to-day terms than Japan. Japan isn't exactly innocent aside from the death penalty though, as I am sure you know - detention without lawyers, terrible prison conditions etc.

I suppose I am happy that I don't have to make the choice and I don't have to live in either. If you live in Uzbekistan, I suppose you would give anything to live in Japan with only a slight threat of being sentenced to death, either wrongly or rightly.

If you are on Japanese Death Row especially if you are wrongly convicted, I suppose you would want to be in Uzbekistan with the possibility of more progressive government as the country open up or leaving.

There are a host of things that I would be (and am) much more concerned about than being "under threat of being executed by the state that I live in" (particularly if the judicial system is fair)

That is a fairly big "If". How many innocent people have been executed in the US over the years?

[ursus arctos]

OTF China Watch

Hundreds, possibly thousands, depending on how far you want to go back.

Or a small fraction of those who have been murdered in other ways, by the state and by private actors.

I don't mean to impune your opposition to the death penalty, which I share. My point is only that it is to me a mistake to focus on any single attribute of a society, and that personally, I find the death penalty a strange choice even were one forced to pick a single measure.

Growing up, I worried about being killed (probably more so than most of my peers), but being executed never made it close to my top five, which were:

1) Nuclear holocaust
2) War (especially as a conscript)
3) Being shot by "bad guys"
4) Being shot by the cops
5) Accident

[Bored Of Education]

OTF China Watch

That's why I said, "first and foremost". Apart from the ones you so cleverly found for me (you bastard), there are very few countries where capital punishment isn't wrapped up with torture, imprisonment without trial and a load of other human rights abuses.

It is my fault that I made a point about China using some idea of a league table of human rights which is somewhat deflecting from my point about attitudes towards China.

Let's just say that China, Cuba, Venuzuela, North Korea, Uzbekistan etc all have a lot of work to do with their human rights but China doesn't seem to be being pointed in that direction with any great degree of force by the West.

[MsD]

OTF China Watch

Without diminishing the importance of human rights, aren't there policies and practices of China's that are more "the West"'s business and concern, and/or more pressing, such as carbon emissions, nuclear capabilities, and foreign policy issues?

They are being cooperative on the first point (CO2 emissions), are possibly leading the way on emissions trading, and it does need to be acknowledged that China's emissions are to some extent driven by consumption patterns in the West. However, inevitably, they have become the world's leading polluters.

So, any "pressure" the world might bring to bear might be better applied there, or that might be the reasoning behind it, or not. It shouldn't be "rights vs environment", but I see it as a bit micro vs macro.

[ursus arctos]

OTF China Watch

That's an interesting point of view.

On carbon emissions, one could read China's newly more positive position as being indicative of their longer term world view. It's not going to do them much good to once again become the world's most advanced society if the world has become uninhabitable in the meantime.

That isn't the only possible reading, of course, but I do think that it is a factor (as is the fact that the leadership isn't relying on the votes of coal-dependant states to stay in power).

On foreign policy, I'm genuinely troubled by the degree to which Chinese money appears to be propping up some of the most despicable characters in Sudan, Somalia, Equatorial Guinea, etc (just as I am troubled to see US money being behind similarly odious characters).