not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

[ad hoc]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

Me too.

[Wyatt Earp]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

Bloody hell, Nef. Mrs E is going to ask why I'm crying.

[Wyatt Earp]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

I think part of the reason I'm so moved is--well, look, I'm moved because it's moving, and that's really that. But it's partly that I recognise in Nef's posting feelings I've had myself in muted form, as a gentile who grew up in a largely Jewish area of London. In a far smaller way, I think I've had to make my own peace with Germany (and Austria), and it's taken me a fair few years, though I reckon I'm there now. But there's obviously no real comparison.

[ad hoc]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

The only thing I don't like about it is the Beckenbauer quote which rubs me up the wrong way quite a lot.

[ursus arctos]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

Wyatt's expressed the grounding of much of my reaction, as someone who not only grew up in a similar environment on the other side of the pond, but whose Polish relatives were wiped out by fighting between the Nazis and the Russians (geography can be a bitch).

And my mother would never let us ride in a BMW, either.

I can understand why ad hoc is troubled by the Beckenbauer quote, but it's Beckenbauer (and sounds like it was in given in English, which would have lost any nuance he may be capable of (which may be none)).

[Hofzinser]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

I've only been able to pop in here intermittently over the past few weeks, and then only to post rather than read, but my goodness, I'm glad I popped in tonight and caught that post.

Brilliant stuff, nef, and incredibly moving, as others have said. In particular, the four paragraphs after the Neckerman link are outstanding.

[G-Man]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

Indeed, a wonderful post, Nef. Thank you.

As a German who grew up in those soul-searching times (great prep for post-apartheid South Africa), I share your perception about the "new" Germans. I think they can be free of the past because the nation has finally overcome it. The Vergangenheitsbewältigung has been accomplished.

That's what I found so utterly astonishing in 2006, when there were German flags being waved about without evidence of the tinge of self-consciousness these acts provoked, if not in the waver, then in many observers.

I don't think though that the history has ceased to matter; at least I hope that there is still a consciousness concerning Germany's past. But it seems to me that there is a mindset that has developed as a direct repudiation of Germany's racist past.

[Nefertiti2]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

I'm grateful from the generous response from so many people whose opinion on here I value-

I think the problem with Beckenbauer's quote is what I'm taking about - he sounds over-defensive-

"we're patriotic,just like everyone else- have you got a problem with that?"

And the answer is that "yes we do have a problem with that. Or we did. And so should you, Franz.

And the problem is not Beckenbauer the man, who seems far more modern than any of his English contemporaries, and as far as I know does the best he can. The problem is with the Germany of that generation. Guilty, defensive, clumsy, unsure of itself.

And it's that edge, that tone, that isn't present any more.

I agree with Franz, though that 2006 was an important stage in that transformation. The German flag wasn't being waved aggressively and people began to acknowledge that. And two World Wars and one World cup is now trumped by three World Cups and three European championships.

I have to add that one reason I can't share the general loathing for FC Bayern on here is not only were they a club with a Jewish president Kurt Landauer until 1933 they relected him after the war. Not every club did that. And the whole team went to visit him in Switzerland in (I think) 1940. That was a very brave thing to do.

Anyway in tribute to my relatives a joke.

A German is visiting a friend in New York and they go out for breakfast. Bagels with lox. "Mmm I love bagels. You can''t get a decent bagel in Germany." And his friend says "Whose fault's that then?"

[The Alan Partridge Project]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

Jewish jokes! We got 'em!

The site's author is a buffonish ex-manager of mine. I try to atone for my open ridiculing of the man in the past by puffing his website.

But yes, thoughtfully put, Nef.

[dalliance]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

I hadn't ventured onto this thread much but am glad I did for that Nef post. Let me echo the praise above.

[G-Man]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

And the problem is not Beckenbauer the man, who seems far more modern than any of his English contemporaries, and as far as I know does the best he can. The problem is with the Germany of that generation. Guilty, defensive, clumsy, unsure of itself.

And it's that edge, that tone, that isn't present any more.

But it's not there in large part because Franz and his generation did all the clumsy, unsure-of-themselves, guilt-riddenness.

[ad hoc]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

I think the problem with the Beckenbauer bit for me is not so much the defensiveness but the feeling that flying the flag/singing the anthem is a move forward, and that Germans rediscovering their nationalism is a good thing (this is not about Germans per se, just that I feel there's no such thing as benign nationalism, more like a continuum of less to more malignant)

As a complete aside, how much do people (I mean you here, reading this) feel uncomfortable around the German flag? Why I ask is that there are flags of certain nations which are, in my eyes, stained with blood, but the German flag has never been one of them. I think mostly because Nazi Germany had another symbol and even another flag, which of course is, very much, deeply soaked in blood - to the point where it is (and I trust always will be) completely unacceptable and taboo to wave/fly/show/hang out the window.

[Wyatt Earp]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

I think it's possible for something to be not a good thing, but a good sign. One example is black and Asian people (and "out" gay people) joining the Tories: I can't celebrate anyone joining the Tories as a thing it itself, but I can see it as a measure of progress on other fronts.

In the same way, I can't support nationalism in itelf, but I can see as indicative of something healthy the increasing acceptance, by Germans and others, of the same kind of benign-end patriotism as you find in other nations.

Edit: I mean less-malignant-end.

[Wyatt Earp]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

I think the flag of the Bundesrepublik has always tended to avoid the negative feelings associated with some other aspects of German-ness. Even back in the 70s, people used to wear Bundeswehr coats, didn't they, with that flag sewn into them? With no sense of defying a taboo.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

I've often mused that most Germans in the 1930s didn't really "hate" the Jews one jot, but they were happy to rebel against the bankers, and the intellectuals, who had led their country into ruin. It just happened that most of the bankers (and, through wealth, the intellectuals) happened to be Jewish - as true in Germany as it was in Britain, or America.

(For further proof of periodic resentment of the Jews' role as the world's money lenders, read, I don't know, the Magna Carta, for starters. Or how about the New Testament).

When Hitler's mob started off, I bet most Germans had a sense of "well if this lot can sort out those fucking bankers, we'll support them". Probably pretty much like we would now, eh? But then of course once people start marching around with machine guns and arrest warrants, it takes a very brave person indeed to say "er, hang on, I never signed up for this".

[ad hoc]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

Why on Earth... wrote:

In the same way, I can't support nationalism in itelf, but I can see as indicative of something healthy the increasing acceptance, by Germans and others, of the same kind of benign-end patriotism as you find in other nations.

Whereas I sort of think that Germany actually has an opportunity to lead the world in, I dunno, "post-nationalism". And in fact what I like "politically" about this 2010 German football team is that it could be part of that process. Dragging it back to flag-waving and being proud to be German, rather than seeing Germany as a country of many nations and indeed "beyond" nations in some way, is (to my mind) regressive

[G-Man]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

In South Africa the flag-waving and national pride is something that is very much encouraged as a way of overcoming the divided past (and present). Here, a sense of nationalism can be altogether a good thing.

[ad hoc]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

Yes, that's a fair point.

The obvious big difference between Germany and South Africa is that the latter is still home to both the victims and the aggressors of the past, which is obviously not the case in Germany. Nationalism/patriotism in RSA then is as much about unity and reconciliation as anything, whereas in Germany it doesn't have that positive element

[Nefertiti2]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

A couple of things.

Firstly I have to say that I have real problems with Rogin's comments.

I've often mused that most Germans in the 1930s didn't really "hate" the Jews one jot, but they were happy to rebel against the bankers, and the intellectuals, who had led their country into ruin.

Calumny number one. It was not the bankers and the intellectuals who led the country into ruin.

It just happened that most of the bankers (and, through wealth, the intellectuals) happened to be Jewish - as true in Germany as it was in Britain, or America.

Yes as true as in England and in America i.e. not true at all.

(For further proof of periodic resentment of the Jews' role as the world's money lenders, read, I don't know, the Magna Carta, for starters. Or how about the New Testament).

The majority of moneylenders were not Jews and the majority of Jews were not moneylenders. That there has been a historical hatred of Jews is without question -a lot of it made (and Rogin's post makes clear, unfortunately still makes) use of this kind of stuff. At best it's lazy and unthought-through. At worst... it's anti-Semitic claptrap.

AS far an nationalism goes there are a number of points... it's only until very recently that

The obvious big difference between Germany and South Africa is that the latter is still home to both the victims and the aggressors of the past, which is obviously not the case in Germany

has begun to become true. Until very recently many of those who had profited from the attack on Jews, Sinti and Roma, trade unionists communists socialists gays Jehovah witnesses and so on were continuing to thrive and there were may who stayed in Germany who had lost a great deal.

. Both the dynasties - the neckermen, the Piechs the Quandts, and the individuals, the SS men, the minor Nazi officials who escaped prison and kept what they stole were around til very recently most got off Scot-free. And their victims had to watch them. Doctors benefited from the fact there was less competition when Jews and leftists had to leave. And in most towns businessmen benefited from “aryanised” businesses and cheaply bought property. In very many places there was a conspiracy of silence to protect the guilty. A good place to start is Michael Verhoeven's films the Nasty Girl, about a woman who tried to talk about who had done what in a small Bavarian town Cynically one can say that its easier to talk about it nowadays because no one is personally affected. (Or likely to have to return things.)

Secondly I do think that the post-war German nationalism, which could not be expressed because people were scared of it, was more powerful than the one that can wave a black-red-gold flag at the fan mile.

The hidden nationalism- as far as I recall commentators were not allowed to use the word “ Germany” (Deutschland) when commentating on an international football game but “the Germans” (die Deutschen) or the German National Team (die Deutsche Nationalmannschaft). It was an important and necessary stage in making waving the national flag (and German nationalism) relatively harmless-or no more or less harmful than waving any other flag. It is an important stage in normalization and much more healthy than the repressed anger guilt. It’s significant I think that two of the worst football acts-the Game of Shame, between Germany and Austria to shut out Algeria, and the attack by Schumacher on Battiston were carried out by the West German Team and could be said to be expressions of that guilty buried nationalism-as crime. I hope Loew ‘s team wouldn’t do that.

[Wyatt Earp]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

Rogin's comments have angered me enough to mention August Bebel's phrase for anti-Semitism: "the socialism of fools".

Fucking woeful stuff, Rogin. Your "bloke down the pub told me" act is sometimes diverting enough, but the stakes are a bit higher on this.

[ursus arctos]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

And Nef has dealt with it extraordinarily well (much better than I would have).

I think the flag of the Bundesrepublik has always tended to avoid the negative feelings associated with some other aspects of German-ness. Even back in the 70s, people used to wear Bundeswehr coats, didn't they, with that flag sewn into them? With no sense of defying a taboo.

Wyatt, I think that the coats are quite different for a couple of reasons. The first is that they first became popular among people who got them from national service (or from their older siblings). The second is that they fit into a general trend for "army surplus" clothing among counter-culturish yoofs that extended well outside of Germany (indeed, most everyone that I've seen wearing one in the last decade hasn't been German). And three, the Bundeswehr is seen by many to be much closer to the UN Blue Berets than the Wehrmacht (this was even more true prior to 2000).

[Guest]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

Historically, a great deal of the Jews "role" as moneylenders was foisted upon them, rather than being a business they were naturally drwan to. Many of the great Gothic cathedrals were financed by Jewish usury, through a neatly reprehensible piece of theological and legal chicanery, whereby the lending of money was prohibited as being sinful, and Jews were equally prohibited from engaging in any other business. So cathedrals got built while the Jews took the burden of finance as well as sin. Again, it was a situation they were engineered into rather than one they happened to be in.

[Brandenburger Toro]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

A wonderful thread about some issues I've been trying to think about for a while, and I echo everything that's been said about Nef's post. I'll try and say something substantive in the next few days.

In the meantime, let me say that I read Rogin's post as very much concerned with the attitudes and perceptions of the German public, which did include those historical calumnies. It didn't at all seem to me that he was endorsing their truth, though that's a purely subjective impression...

[Moonlight Shadow]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

Erm, indeed Toro, I think Rogin is being a bit misread here.

[Nefertiti2]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

Maybe he is- it's difficult to distinguish sometimes between representing a particular way of looking at the world and perpetuating it.

But perhaps it should be made clear that this statement:

It just happened that most of the bankers (and, through wealth, the intellectuals) happened to be Jewish - as true in Germany as it was in Britain, or America.

is an assertion which is both factually untrue and politically incendiary, and needs at the very least to be contextualised if its not intended to be taken at face value.

Switzerland, incidentally, is another country which has singularly failed to engage with its anti-semitic past and its culpability in aiding the crimes (and the criminals) of the Third Reich and where (in my experience) a casual racism (which still includes anti-semitism) is often assumed to connect the indigenous community.