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    not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

    Michael ballack's agent comes over all richard desmond

    #2
    not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

    Fantastic. That has tempted me even further towards splashing out on one of those black German shirts.

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      #3
      not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

      Experts estimate that around 10 per cent of all Bundesliga professionals are gay.
      So gay people are slightly overrepresented in the Bundesliga? That would be a bit odd.

      Jesus though, The Guardian is so bloody sloppy these days. "Experts estimate that around 10 per cent of all Bundesliga professionals are gay." No further comment required. But wait - who are these "experts"? How did they reach that figure? "My mate Dieter who's gay, right, and he's German, and he says his gaydar is 100% accurate and he's NEVER BEEN WRONG, well anyway, he reckons..."

      No, I'm sure they have a much better system than that, these experts.

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        #4
        not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

        I've taken a quick look at kicker, Bild, the FAZ and the Suddeutsche, and this is getting nowhere near the level of coverage in Germany that the Guardian article would have lead one to believe.

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          #5
          not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

          Experts estimate that around 10 per cent of all Bundesliga professionals are gay.
          What are they experts in?

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            #6
            not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

            There's a nice interview with Philip Lahm here

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              #7
              not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

              I have to confess the first time I read TMK's opening post I did so in a bit of a rush and thought he'd typed 'comes all over Richard Desmond' rather than what he actually had done.

              Which would have been an interesting twist to the story, given his comments.

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                #8
                not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

                Can't find the Gay reference in the Spiegel-online profile of Ballack . However it does reveal that Sir Elton Sang at Ballack's wedding and played the German Nationalhymne for the only time in his life

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                  #9
                  not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

                  Nefertiti2 wrote:
                  There's a nice interview with Philip Lahm here

                  Comment


                    #10
                    not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

                    Comment


                      #11
                      not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

                      I love the bit about him correcting a convoluted sentence in FIFA's anti-racism message. I can imagine him being handed it by Sepp and then immediately whipping out a red biro.

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                        #12
                        not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

                        On the strictly football side, this struck me as interesting. Lahm says

                        The Argentineans were split into five offensive and five defensive players. Once we had overcome the first block, we were able to spread out, and then we had plenty of room. It was all open.
                        This tracks with the criticism that Maradona received before the tournament when it was clear he was going to play with 4 centerbacks in the backline and deciding mid-stream to task Mascherano with the Herculean effort of handling the entire German midfield by himself. They never had a chance from the tactical point of view and really shows up Maradona's shortcomings. As Tim Vickery detailed, a more in vogue 4-2-3-1 with Mascherano and Cambiasso/Banega/Gago would probably have been more useful. What a lost a opportunity for Argentina.

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                          #13
                          not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

                          Lahm: "There was one endless convoluted sentence which we corrected."

                          Another German attribute the 2010 team has undone.

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                            #14
                            not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

                            SPIEGEL: In the modern stadiums and in your hotel, did you even notice that you were in Africa?
                            For crying out loud. And that from Der Spiegel!

                            "In the modern stadiums and in your hotel, did you even notice that you were in Germany?"

                            Well, I did see an oompah band parade past, a couple of people in Lederhosen and Kristallnacht as a gas.

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                              #15
                              not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

                              Ladysmith Black Mumpozo wrote:
                              Fantastic. That has tempted me even further towards splashing out on one of those black German shirts.
                              Belated

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                                #16
                                not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

                                I did so in a bit of a rush and thought he'd typed 'comes all over Richard Desmond'
                                That has tempted me even further towards splashing out on one of those black German shirts.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

                                  Yeah, as G-Man says, what's with objecting to convoluted sentences? I'm beginning to wonder whether this team can really be Germany at all.

                                  It is an odd interview, that one, and not just for the reasons Purves cites. In addition to the muckracking and the sycophancy, there's a moment that seemed to be quite heartfelt and genuine, where he celebrates what he sees as progress in how Germany is seen in the world.

                                  This is a very large issue, of course, which to say the least takes us well beyond football. But my feeling is (a) he's right, that perception is changing, and (b) football has indeed had something to do with it. Though those incredibly dull "Why not visit Germany, with its reasonable prices?" posters featuring Ballack aren't helping (do non-Londoners get those, or are they only on the Tube?)

                                  This may be massively out of order, but it's surely the case, even now, that if you're Jewish, it's possible you'll find warm feelings for Germany tricky to cultivate; I certainly have a few properly lefty, internationalist Jewish friends who find they can't quite manage that. So (and this is the possibly out of order bit, in which case please tell me to fuck off) I'm kind of interested in Nef's angle on it all.

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                                    #18
                                    not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

                                    Garnmörder.

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                                      #19
                                      not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

                                      Does one really use "Garn" for this kind of "thread"?

                                      I honestly don't know, but always think of it as this kind of thing:

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                                        #20
                                        not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

                                        Won't be able to respond to this til tomorrow but am happy to throw I'm two pfennigworth - it was tha t element l that you commented on WE that led me to post the link

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                                          #21
                                          not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

                                          ursus arctos wrote:
                                          Does one really use "Garn" for this kind of "thread"?
                                          No idea. It was sort of a gag...

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

                                            That's what I figured.

                                            But we all know that Germans have no sense of humour . . .

                                            I'm interested in hearing Nef's take. It is definitely a subject of conversation among some of my leftish Jewish friends, and generally one that they find difficult to discuss with their parents.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

                                              It’s very hard to know where to start with this. I'm not sure how much I have to contribute. I've put some thoughts down- not the most thought through of responses.

                                              I loved the way this german team played football and I liked them as people as far as I could tell. They enjoyed themselves.

                                              I liked the part of the Lahm interview you referred to and I think it shows what’s so special about this German team. – They are enthusiastic about being who they are. And that includes being diverse and united. A different kind of Germanness. One that hasn’t existed for over 75 years- if ever.

                                              I found it surprisingly moving when Lahm read the FIFA anti-racism statement (though ordinarily I despise those official anti-racist statement from FIFA or anyone else) - firstly because- as the interview seems to suggest - he seemed co be involved in what he was saying, and secondly because this German team embodied a different kind of German-ness - one which many of the people watching in Germany supporting the team have been actively involved in contesting - and by that I mean setting fire to people who were of a different colour or ethnicity.

                                              My father was born Iin Germany and came to England by the skin of his teeth. he spent a lot of time in Germany after the war.

                                              His wrath was saved for the Austrians and the Poles who he saw s continuing to be Anti-Semitic in a way he didn’t - or perhaps couldn't consider the Germans to be. He felt that Germany was prepared to confront its past in a way he didn’t think the Austrians or the poles were prepared to do. That obviously is an over-simplifications and partial. But the fact is that he himself was German. It was his culture.

                                              He saved his rage for the companies like BMW or Neckermann who stole and murdered and continued to thrive.

                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Neckermann

                                              Part of his tragedy was that he was forced into exile from the country and culture he loved and he was told that he did not belong to the place he had always thought of as his. And that ceasing to be German - and being compelled to adopt another (Jewish) identity which was only one part of who he felt himself to be was one of the very significant losses that exile brought him– apart of course from the family who were murdered and the inheritance that was stolen.

                                              Occasionally in my mind I have an imaginary conversation with Hitler. In which I point out to him that after the war his country was defeated, and in ruins. The Swastike is illegal. The road around the Berlin Stadium is called after Jesse Owens. There are new synagogues being built all over Germany and he and his movement is shamed throughout the world

                                              And occasionally I hear Adolf whisper- yes but it was worth it. we got rid of the Jews. They are no longer part of German economic or social life.

                                              And maybe that’s what this new German team represent for me. It really seems that history is not relevant. It has nothing to do with them. And that’s wonderful. There are fewer jews around But instead They embrace the Turks or the Africans or the Germans they grew up with and play alongside. They are a team. There’s nothing more to be said. At last that’s normal.

                                              There was an interview with Beckenbauer in the Evening Standard the other day, which I found a significant as a marker of how much things have changed. I like Beckenbauer and it’s amazing to think hat he goes from 66 to 2010 -44 years of world cups.

                                              Despite being one of only two men to win World Cups as player and manager — the Brazilian Mario Zagallo being the other — Beckenbauer rates his achievement of winning the bid for 2006 as the biggest success in his football career. He says: “As a player, as a manager we have the chance to win the World Cup every four years, but to bring the World Cup to your country, it happens to you only once in your lifetime. For the next 50 years, there will be no World Cup in Germany.”
                                              And what made the triumph all the sweeter was that Germans learnt to display their nationalism without threatening other countries.
                                              “Yes,” he says. “That's right. A united Germany never had the World Cup and during 2006 German flags were flying, people were singing the national anthem and could identify with the country for the first time. I was surprised.” So how did this come about?
                                              “You know before the World Cup everybody was scared,” explains Beckenbauer. “Because of the Second World War, the Germans were always a little bit afraid, because they still feel. . .”
As he pauses, I suggest, “Guilt?”
                                              “Guilt, yeah. Not as much in our generation because we were born after the World War. But our parents and our grandparents were involved so we felt a little bit guilty. There was a release at the World Cup.”
                                              This German team don’t have this burden. This “yet but”. This need to assert themselves –and the knowledge that it will never be enough. They play well. They are full of enthusiasm. - I can’t think of an English player who is as sharp and bright as Thomas Mueller. And Thomas Mueller who was at the fan mile as a 16 year old in 2006. Because that was the best place to be.

                                              I think the German consttituion (like the National Health Service) is one of the great creations of the Atlee Government. The German government and polity have worked hard at telling as much of the truth as can be borne. Very few countries have done that. I’m not sure England has.

                                              I’m reminded of seeing a Nazi march in Munich which was banned and then give the right to march - both decisions I agree with, somehow, and thousands turned out to shame and ridicule the marchers. They laughed at them. They made them look ridiculous. It was a magnificent display. And I see the current German team as the heirs to that they are able to embrace cultural difference and yet play as a team. They are modern and thoughtful and they think for themselves and work together. I wish I could say the same about the English team..

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                                                #24
                                                not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

                                                That's a fabulous post, nef.

                                                One of the best I've ever read on here.

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                                                  #25
                                                  not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

                                                  Echoed.

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