Tough match lacking in tough calls

[multipleman78]

Would it have been farcical, perhaps. Would it have been chaos, probably. Would it have been wrong? No.

Had Howard Webb followed the laws of the game last night he would have reduced the World Cup final to a game nearing a five a side match. Was he wrong to to let so much go as it was the World Cup final?

I think he should apply the laws not the laws of the World Cup final which dont exist. If it means Holland are down to nine men at half time then tough. They chose to play that way.

De Jong - Booked when should have been sent off and arrested.

Van Bommel - Booked for savage tackle. Then fouls Xavi with body check and in second half blatantly pulls him back. Still no second yellow. Then stamps on Iniesta which is not given as foul.

Sneijder - Thigh high tackle that was only punished with talking to. Perhaps a booking would have done here as it could have been seen as attempt for ball but it was certainly reckless.

Robben - Already booked and deliberately kicks ball away. Webb knew he had to book him but decided against it as it was the final. He then books Xavi for the exact same offence.

Puyol - Undoubtedly impedes Robben who is bursting through on goal. Rightly plays on but once it was clear stride had been affected, play should be brought back and Puyol red carded.

Iniesta - Victim of stamping but gets up and takes out Van Bommel in retaliation. Clear red card but gets talking to instead. He is then booked for taking shirt off.

Heitinga - Correctly sent off but i am not sure Webb saw first booking. He may have had help from linesman. If so then fair dues.

Definite penalty when Heitinga made no attempt at ball in the box and took out Xavi who was aiming to strike the ball.

Free kick hits the wall, Casillas tips it round post and its given as goal kick. Kick gets taken, Elia gets it. He gets fouled and Webb says play on and Spaniards break to score.

The red card incidents are hardly debatable. De Jong, Van Bommel, Puyol, Robben, Iniesta and Heitinga were all clear cut. Sneijder's was a possible.

If Webb had done his job properly he would have probably have been slaughtered for ruining the game so i can understand his attempts at trying to keep the game even with 11 v 11. I have lots of sympathy for the position he was in but i feel he let the Dutch almost brutalise their way to the World Cup and that would have been the biggest travesty of all.

[ursus arctos]

Tough match lacking in tough calls

I think that the game plays out differently if De Jong is sent off (and even more so if Van Bommel or someone else had been sent off for two yellows).

As soon as it became clear that he wasn't giving second yellows for just about anything,* Holland felt fully justified in implementing their "rotating foul" strategy that at times resembled the worst of basketball goonery.

It also seemed to me that he missed a number of key incidents (I don't think he saw De Jong's karate kick) and that he wasn't helped by his assistants (the goal kick/corner fiascoes were surely their fault).

*As others have noted, it was ironic that he got the one he did hand out wrong.

[Sundeporino]

Tough match lacking in tough calls

Webb ruined this years League Cup Final by not dismissing Vidic after ten minutes or so.
Ill put money on Van Persie & Kuyt mentioning this in the days before the final.

[multipleman78]

Tough match lacking in tough calls

i thought the league cup final was Dowd.

The one he did send off was correct for me. Heitinga was correctly booked for chop on Iniesta and he did impede Iniesta who was moving into good position. Iniesta had the sense to embellish it unlike Robben.

[Satchmo Distel]

Tough match lacking in tough calls

I think it's true of EPL referees in general that they will not hand out early reds. Maybe it's the Sky TV influence: Murdoch decrees that games must be 11 v 11? And of course EPL players will know this.

[Sundeporino]

Tough match lacking in tough calls

multipleman78 wrote:

i thought the league cup final was Dowd.

The one he did send off was correct for me. Heitinga was correctly booked for chop on Iniesta and he did impede Iniesta who was moving into good position. Iniesta had the sense to embellish it unlike Robben.

Was it? Hmmm, too much free corporate drink to wash down the prawn sarnies for me that day then.

[Etienne]

Tough match lacking in tough calls

It was Dowd. Webb failed to give Villa a pen against Chelsea in the FA Cup semi.

[Sundeporino]

Tough match lacking in tough calls

I wasnt at that one.....I think...hic.

[dalliance]

Tough match lacking in tough calls

It was Dowd. Webb failed to give Villa a pen against Chelsea in the FA Cup semi.

Ah so he was the idiot who only booked Terry for that wild assault on James Milner then.

Seems to be a pattern emerging.

[Ray de Galles]

Tough match lacking in tough calls

multipleman78 wrote:

Definite penalty when Heitinga made no attempt at ball in the box and took out Xavi who was aiming to strike the ball.

Complete and total bollocks. Xavi took a swipe at the ball missed and kicked Heitinga's static standing leg.

The Dutch did enough wrong last night without having to invent shit like this to make poor ickle Spain seem even more hard done by. That's without even getting in to what Spain got away with in the semi and final.

It was a football match, a frequently brutal and dirty one granted but why does everyone want to turn it in to a good v evil Victorian morality tale?

Edit: on properly reading your post (which I should have done in the first place) it's a lot more balanced than I thought so apologies that the last two paragraphs are out of line. Still totally disagree with you over the Xavi/Heitinga incident though and I remain unconvinced that Web saw or got any advice on the challenge for Heitinga's first booking.

[multipleman78]

Tough match lacking in tough calls

thanks for realising that my thread was about the woeful nature of the refereeing all round and not just the poor Spanish being victimised. I am of the opinion that every team are cheating cunts so have no sympathy for anyone. Note that when Van Bommel pulled Xavi back in second half (a clear second yellow for Van Bommel), Xavi gestures to Webb to book Van Bommel. That is supposed to be an instant yellow for Xavi but Webb just gave him a stern look.

As for penalty claim, that was remarkably clever play by Heitinga but it is given as a free kick/penalty almost every time. I am not sure of the actual rule here, i was just basing my opinion on what referees almost always do.

You said Heitingas leg was static. That is rather unfair. He saw Xavi winding up, realised he couldnt reach the ball, stretched and planted his leg right in Xavi's swing zone. He is not playing the ball, he is blocking an opponent getting to it. Could you argue he can place his leg anywhere and Xavi must not kick it? I suppose you could but i think this type of foul is given because one man is playing the ball, the other is making no attempt to and i think it is given as a form of obstruction (not saying it is obstruction just saying i think that is how refs see it.)

I guess we will agree to disagree on this one and if that is the case then i guess it was debatable enough for a ref to consider not giving it. Most of the other decisions i felt were beyond debate.

My thread is titled tough match lacking tough calls. You know what, that is wrong. This match was so easy to referee but Webb bottled it. If he sends off De Jong which is so easy to spot the Dutch have to stop immediately. Once they realised it was open season they just went to town.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Tough match lacking in tough calls

multiple man, you forgot to mention that robin van persie should have been booked in the first minute. He then got up and hacked another player 15 minutes later to get the first booking of the match.

[anton pulisov]

Tough match lacking in tough calls

Van Bommel also gave away a clear penalty against Xabi Alonso, but used his Men in Black flash of light on Howard Webb.

[Mr Shit]

Tough match lacking in tough calls

You were doing alright until you said Iniesta should have been sent off for gently knocking Van Bommel over after another unpunished foul by this nasty cunt who shouldn't have even been on the pitch by this time.

[Uosdwis R Dewoh]

Tough match lacking in tough calls

Webb is clearly looking at the de Jong challenge when it happened. The first Heitinga card (I thought it was Villa? Doing from memory here) and Webb starts turning his head away before Johnny boy makes contact.

If Howard Webb had sent off de Jong or van Bommel in the first half, then let the game proceed in exactly the same manner as it did, handing out continuous flow of yellow cards, etc., I'm reasonably sure most would consider that he had a good game.

[Banana Banana]

Tough match lacking in tough calls

If he had sent 2 players off he would have got crucified. The only real complaints are from the sore losers. If Webb had punished the possible foul before Iniesta's goal then there would have been even more fouls given.

If he had given red cards strictly on merit the game would have been abandoned when the Dutch went down to 7 men.

The Dutch knew that a world cup final referee would be reluctant to use a red card and played their cynical game to the full on that basis. Even they must have been shocked that he booked the seemingly untouchable Van Bommel.

The Dutch team are not the only team to indulge in cyclical fouling: the referee is quite aware of this, but it is unrealistic to expect a referee to be able to do more in match other than punish individual players for the offences they commit. The FA / FIFA can dish out collective punishments after the game.

There has been not quite as much horseshit on this controversy as there was in the Suarez handball. But as far as world cups go there has been a fair dose of this.

[Nefertiti2]

Tough match lacking in tough calls

We have no idea what would or wouldn't have happened- there are too may variables. On the basis of what did happen it became apparent that t no-one was going to get a red card for two yellow card offences or for any single offence extreme violent conduct.

By the end of the first half there were so many violent acts unpunished it was more or less impossible to referree the game.

Webb should ahve applied the laws of the game inthe first half. I think it highly unlikely the Dutch would have continued the same strategy after they had been reduced to ten men. If they had done, more fool them.

[Tactical Genius]

Tough match lacking in tough calls

Indeed.
To be honest, i was sitting right at the back of the stadium and without the benefit of slow-mo have not seen many of these incidents a second time.

The only guff i have read, is all this spoiling the game stuff.
Regardless of how many red or yellow cards get dished out, Webb has to apply the rules of the game and he has a reputation in England of bottling the big descisions.

As a referess, you have to show the players that you are in charge and if anyone breaks the rules they will be punished.
Compare this to the Spain v Germany semi that was played in a remarkable spirit with no dirty tackles, histrionics and play acting.

In the final, Holland came out kicking, and when they realised they were going to get away with it, continued to kick more. Spain feeling that were not getting any protection for Dutch thuggery, started to retaliate, dive and roll around and brandish imaginary cards, before you knew it, the game had gone out of control. This is how referees lose control of games.

Luckily for Webb the right team won, if the Dutch had won the world cup, he would have been finished as an international referee.

[ooh aah]

Tough match lacking in tough calls

So we're all in agreement then, the ref ruined the game.

Now I wonder what the collective otf response would have been if the same complaints had been made after a Man Utd game by Alex Ferguson?

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Tough match lacking in tough calls

I think it would be fairer to say he helped the dutch ruin the game. It would have been ruined if he'd sent off three dutch players

[multipleman78]

Tough match lacking in tough calls

If Webb had sent off three Dutch players then the game may have been ruined as a contest but would Webb have been the one guilty. I think not.

Analysis by anyone (maybe not in Holland) would have realised that the Dutch caused their own downfall and that he had no choice.

If the Dutch had lost 5-0 because they played thuggish football then its their own fault. I am assuming that if De Jong, Van Bommel or Sneijder had gone in 1st half that they would have behaved but if they hadnt then they would only have themselves to blame.

I hate all this shit about the spectacle of the World Cup final. Its still a game where the same rules apply. Because he didnt apply the rules, he kept the numbers level and in his mind the spectacle going evenly but instead we got a spectacle in thuggery and retaliation.

If refs are going to apply easy going laws for World Cup finals then any team that thinks they will be up against it will take this philosophy to break up their opponents rhythm. I wonder if FIFA put any pressure on refs to keep it 11 v 11 as long as humanly possible.

Talking of Fifa, do you think they came under political pressure to make sure that North Korea were in the worst group possible? I dont think so but i like it as a conspiracy theory.