Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

[Tony C]

Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

"My point is that even though they don't necessarily need a plan B in international football, they might be more interesting to watch sometimes if they had one".

When Spain bring on the likes of Navas - who is essentially an old-fashioned right winger - or the more direct Silva they are changing the dynamic of the team and giving opponents different types of problems. Essentially they are implimenting a Plan B. They do this regularly.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

only if they brought on llorente, or torres. Bringing on navas for pedro, and leaving 5'9" david villa in the middle doesn't really change spains plan A of pass pass pass on the ground in front of the opposition's packed defence. Even when torres is on the pitch they don't ever really seem interested in using him.

[Taylor]

Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

The Mighty Kubelgog!!! wrote:

But he's really not much cop as a centre half... I wouldn't be too happy too see him playing for man utd

Well hang on, surely Rio Ferdinand is the closest English player to Pique in style? The main difference is that Ferdinand would rather play a bit further back and step in with a tackle in (or on the edge of) the box, whereas Pique is more likely to close someone down 25 yards from his own goal, often because that's where he was standing when his team lost possession. Other than that, they have a lot of similar strengths and weaknesses (both need to play beside a Puyol / Vidic type, both read the game very well but suffer the odd lapse of concentration). They can both play better than is strictly necessary for central defenders, but clearly Pique's passing and goalscoring abilities are far superior to Ferdinand's. But is Ferdinand a better defender than Pique - even if we assume (very much) for the sake of argument that he is, is he so much better that he becomes, overall, the better player?

You point out that Pique plays for teams which play in a certain way, which slightly alters the role of the centre back. Fair enough (although Puyol is a very traditional centre back, and those sides certainly need him or someone like him). But that doesn't mean you can win the Champions League, the European Championships and the World Cup in the space of two years, playing at centre back, if you're just a tidy midfield ball-player posing as a defender. Chygrynsky couldn't hack it at Barcelona because he was basically shit, so it's not like you could just stick a dustbin behind Xavi and Iniesta, drape it in a shirt with a low number on it, and call it your centre half. Neither could you stick Cesc Fabregas there and expect to concede a really extraordinarily small number of goals, however long you tried to keep the ball.

The Mighty Kubelgog!!! wrote:

only if they brought on llorente, or torres. Bringing on navas for pedro, and leaving 5'9" david villa in the middle doesn't really change spains plan A of pass pass pass on the ground in front of the opposition's packed defence.

I sort of agree with this - I was surprised that Llorente and Navas weren't used as a pair (with Villa out left). Navas doesn't play in a tiki-taka side, he plays for a team that's pretty direct for La Liga, using two big centre forwards and two fast wingers. Struck me as an odd choice to bring him in when you've still got The Rich Man's Michael Owen (or perhaps, Michael Owen as seen in Michael Owen's head when he was kicking a ball round the garden at the age of seven) as your lone striker. It worked alright though - Navas was just used for his pace, and told to cross the ball fast along the ground instead of high in the air. The problem with the Navas-Llorente Plan B is that Xavi is suddenly a bit marginalised, which is never going to be allowed to happen in this Spain side.

The Mighty Kubelgog!!! wrote:

Even when torres is on the pitch they don't ever really seem interested in using him.

Torres wasn't receiving quite as many passes as he usually would because he was obviously walking around with a knee like a plate of mince and a head stuck somewhere far away, and everyone on the pitch could tell. Usually he's a key part of the team - his lack of fitness, then absence, is the single main reason why Spain in the World Cup looked noticably less attacking than usual, and scored fewer goals. Without that kind of spearhead they stuck with the pass-pass-pass in circles for far longer than would usually be the case.

[David Agnew]

Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

The Mighty Kubelgog!!! wrote:

There's no point in even talking about brazil 82, because they'd get slaughtered by a decent championship side by virtue of the fact that they would run at least twice as much, at nearly twice the speed.

This spanish team are great at what they do, but they lack any real strength, or pace which would elevate them to a team that can play in several different ways. They're no ajax 95 for instance.

Strength & Speed > Technique & Passing. And people wonder why English football is light years beyond the world.

But like that ajax team, they're not great in defence. For all their possession they get caught out horribly. It has to be remembered that in both the semi final and in the final their centre halves lack of concentration, and near total lack of any pace was horribly exposed first by ozil and secondly by robben, and in both occasion they dealt with the situation by committing last man fouls that they got away with. that's not good defending, that's relying on the referee to get away with it, or relying on iker casillas to save you.

It has to be remembered that the Spain side haven't conceded a goal in 433 minutes. And those 433 minutes weren't friendlues, they were in the World Cup, the last 390 minutes were the entire knockout stages. So they conceded a couple of chances against the second and third best sides in the world, who wouldn't? And *shock horror* they sometimes rely on their goalkeeper. They should be absolutely fucking ashamed of themselves.

villa is almost exactly the same size and weight as michael owen.

Who of course has been nothing but an abysmal failure throughout his entire career. David Villa would clearly be a better player if he were built like Emile Heskey.

Puyol is just one of those last ditch hero defenders who is always trying to make the big tackle, running towards the ball, long hair flowing, as caught up in the idea of being barcelona captain as much as john terry is. like terry he's as slow as a wet week, and gets caught horribly on the turn. He's just fortunate that he plays for a team where the opposition rarely gets the ball, or doesn't attack in numbers out of fear of the counter attack.

He's fortunate that he's the cornerstone of a system that relies heavily on the passing ability of er, him and his teammates.

pique is a good ball player, but his defensive instincts are not very good at all. he's like john o'shea without the killer instinct.

You carry on telling yourself that, which is why Pique is consdered the best defender of the current World Champions (who also haven't conceded a goal in 433 minutes), and John O'Shea didn't qualify for the World Cup. Still, we can put John O'Shea down in the moral team of the tournament.

This is why he was so far behind johnny evans when it came to breaking through into the man utd first team.

Only this isn't true. Pique was so far behind Jonny Evans that er, Evans was sent on loan to Sunderland while Pique got his chance at Old Trafford, only to be sold for £6m before Jonny Evans made his Premier League debut. Which kind of puts Pique ahead of Evans for anybody's money.

And I don't care if strength isn't as important for this team.... all that shows you is that they have found one way to play around it. the point is surely that if they had some faster stronger players, then they could play in more varied ways. I.e. Like barcelona when they had henry, eto'o and messi up front.

Yes, the World and European Champions would be a better side if they were faster and stronger like Jonny Evans and John O'Shea.

[ursus arctos]

Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

TMK is just riffing on Bryan's "John O'Shea and Richard Dunne would be the best defensive partnership at the World Cup" post.

I don't understand why you guys are picking on him.

[Buzz Killington]

Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

multipleman78 wrote:

To Bogzilla.
They are the best in the World, have been for years and its now beyond debate. Perhaps if they win Euros then everyone will finally give them the standing they deserve.

It's not. I'm not saying that they're not the best team in the world at the moment, merely that their place in the all-time greats is very much still up for debate.

[David Agnew]

Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

ursus arctos wrote:

TMK is just riffing on Bryan's "John O'Shea and Richard Dunne would be the best defensive partnership at the World Cup" post.

I don't understand why you guys are picking on him.

I'm not picking on him. I'm mocking his bizarre opinion. He's a big boy, he can take it.

If I'd seen where Bryan had said "John O'Shea and Richard Dunne would be the best defensive partnership at the World Cup", I'd have torn it apart in the same respect. Bryan has not had the best of World Cups.

[ursus arctos]

Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

Phoebe, that wasn't meant to be taken literally.

Sorry.

Bryan's post here.

[dalliance]

Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

He has been dismissive of pretty much every central defender who has had a good season this year. None of them are good enough, all of them are dirty, cheating, referee conning lumps.

Ironically the one player he has gone to great lengths to defend has been miserable, cumbersome John Terry who has been pretty poor over the season and the World Cup. Many, many words were wasted on defending his distribution which we saw was agricultural during the tournament.

If Lucio, Puyol, Pique and others are no good, who are the best central defenders in the world ? I'm not even going to ask him who are better right backs than Sergio Ramos because he's just going to say Gary Neville.

[Uncle Ethan]

Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

It is extraordinary how differently the game of football plays out in the real world as distinct from the theoretical one that MK inhabits.

[Duncan Gardner]

Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

ursus arctos wrote:

TMK is just riffing on Bryan's "John O'Shea and Richard Dunne would be the best defensive partnership at the World Cup" post

I have this image of Kube as OTF's Jimi Hendrix, playing a flying V banjo with his teeth before setting it aflame.

Jonny Evans made his international debut in the 3-2 win over Spain in 2006, marking Sergio Ramos. Barely put a foot wrong.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

Jesus, i haven't seen so many outraged squawking hens since I said that barcelona had a really obvious glass jaw after the 2-2 draw with arsenal. and then they went out and defended like particularly hungover zombies against inter.

Taylor, there is one fundamental difference between rio ferdinand and gerard pique, and that is that rio ferdinand used to be really fast for a centre half, and gerard pique really isn't. That means that rio ferdinand can recover, whereas pique gets left for dead trying to sort his feet out. He's big and strong, he should be reading the game and going out there ahead of the play and winning the ball like a stopper, but he doesn't do that and he's caught between two stools.

All I'm really saying is that pique looks quite good in the barcelona system, but apart from that he's not too amazing. An example that immediately springs to mind is michael Reiziger. Good for ajax, part of an all conquering team, part of an unbeatable defence, and just not very good at being a defender.

Also taylor, when i was mentioning torres not being used, i was referring as much to the world cup qualifying campaign where he scored 0 goals. They don't really play to his strengths.

Strength & Speed > Technique & Passing. And people wonder why English football is light years beyond the world

That's sharp, pithy, cutting, and deeply stupid. Go back now and read what I said, rather than what you want to read.

So they conceded a couple of chances against the second and third best sides in the world, who wouldn't? And *shock horror* they sometimes rely on their goalkeeper. They should be absolutely fucking ashamed of themselves

sarcasm is no substitute for logic. I'm not horrified that they gave up a couple of chances, I'm merely pointing out that they responded to being left completely for dead by a) running right over the player on the edge of the box b) trying to rugby tackle arjen robben. You can't point to the clean sheets and say they're so amazing without conceding that with better refereeing, they would have been reduced to 10 men in both games, and possibly conceded a couple of penalties if only the referee wasn't blind.

Who of course has been nothing but an abysmal failure throughout his entire career. David Villa would clearly be a better player if he were built like Emile Heskey.

Jesus you're so smart, and funny. This was in response to dalliance saying that villa was big. he isn't. There's no inference about david villa in any way shape or form, just pointing out that by the standards of professional footballers, he just isn't very tall.

and as for johnny evans, in 2008 man utd got a six million pound bid for gerard pique, and a 10 million pound bid for johnny evans from sunderland. they accepted one and turned down the other, because evans was after turning in two fantastic half seasons playing at centre half for a team that wasn't very good. You could see that he was really good at the defensive aspect of being a centre half, which ultimately what you are looking for in a centre half.

[dalliance]

Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

Taylor, there is one fundamental difference between rio ferdinand and gerard pique, and that is that rio ferdinand used to be really fast for a centre half, and gerard pique really isn't. That means that rio ferdinand can recover, whereas pique gets left for dead trying to sort his feet out. He's big and strong, he should be reading the game and going out there ahead of the play and winning the ball like a stopper, but he doesn't do that and he's caught between two stools.

The thing is, Pique does read the game very well and Pique is not slow in the slightest. He reads the game so well more often than not he can be where he needs to be without having a slapdash desperate spring to the ball, like Lucio does for example. He doesn't have that all action Premiership style that is going to appeal to you and your particular sensitivities but he is is so good he doesn't have to.

All I'm really saying is that pique looks quite good in the barcelona system, but apart from that he's not too amazing. An example that immediately springs to mind is michael Reiziger. Good for ajax, part of an all conquering team, part of an unbeatable defence, and just not very good at being a defender.

Well he only plays for two teams and he looks very good for both of them and has played an integral part in multiple successes over the past couple of seasons as a result. Does this happen by accident ?Because in your mind he would not be a great player for the Republic of Ireland this is meant to be something we would take seriously as a black mark against him ?

Players of Pique's particular skillset are rare as hens teeth in England and not even all that common across Europe. He would fit in to any team, the only question you would have is who to play alongside him.

The comparison with Reiziger is pointless. He was a right back, often you can have a right back who is someone there for attacking purposes so his defensive skills are not so important. You cannot be lacking those in central defence.

Also taylor, when i was mentioning torres not being used, i was referring as much to the world cup qualifying campaign where he scored 0 goals. They don't really play to his strengths.

Well perhaps by accident Liverpool play to his strengths then, that being leaving him alone up front with no notable support, batter long balls into the channel for him to chase and hope he can beat a few players and score from nowhere.
Not surprisingly Spain choose not to depend so heavily on one player in one way.

sarcasm is no substitute for logic. I'm not horrified that they gave up a couple of chances, I'm merely pointing out that they responded to being left completely for dead by a) running right over the player on the edge of the box b) trying to rugby tackle arjen robben. You can't point to the clean sheets and say they're so amazing without conceding that with better refereeing, they would have been reduced to 10 men in both games, and possibly conceded a couple of penalties if only the referee wasn't blind.

This is not actually answering the point at all though is it. All you are saying is that when they did yield chances they got back and did whatever they could to stop them which involves using physicality. All defenders do this, why is this such a strange thing for you to reconcile? Do you expect them to stand there with their hands on hips like the French and allow them an unimpeded attack ?

Jesus you're so smart, and funny. This was in response to dalliance saying that villa was big. he isn't. There's no inference about david villa in any way shape or form, just pointing out that by the standards of professional footballers, he just isn't very tall.

Villa is not a weak player. He is compact and powerful and very hard to get off the ball.

a

and as for johnny evans, in 2008 man utd got a six million pound bid for gerard pique, and a 10 million pound bid for johnny evans from sunderland. they accepted one and turned down the other, because evans was after turning in two fantastic half seasons playing at centre half for a team that wasn't very good. You could see that he was really good at the defensive aspect of being a centre half, which ultimately what you are looking for in a centre half.

What relevance does transfer bids have to anything at all ? Are you trying to use this as an attempt to suggest that Evans is nearly 50% better than Pique. Plus two years is a long time in a player's career, Pique has improved playing in a better side and Evans career has gone nowhere. You are not actually suggesting you would pick Evans to partner O'Shea in your fantasy central defence ahead of Pique are you?

My understanding of the Pique situation was that he was homesick and Ferguson released him for this reason. Fair enough, however he much be kicking himself for only getting £6m for him, he dropped the ball badly on that one.

You also didn't answer my questions about who you think the best central defenders in the world actually are if you do not rate Pique, Lucio etc.

[Duncan Gardner]

Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

dalliance wrote:

What relevance does transfer bids have to anything at all ? Are you trying to use this as an attempt to suggest that Evans is nearly 50% better than Pique. Plus two years is a long time in a player's career, Pique has improved playing in a better side and Evans career has gone nowhere. You are not actually suggesting you would pick Evans to partner O'Shea in your fantasy central defence ahead of Pique are you?

Jonny Evans (age 22), recent CV:

2010 Manchester United regular, English League runner-up
2009 Manchester United regular, English League winner, unused sub in European Cup final

[dalliance]

Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

Not sure how regular he has been, playing less than half of the League games despite Vidic and Ferdinand being perpetually unavailable with injury. It's still less than John O'Shea has played despite him also being injured and deeply average.

Only TMK would suggest that O'Shea's career was going anywhere fast. Evans has had an opportunity to stake a proper claim but has not managed this.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

The thing is, Pique does read the game very well and Pique is not slow in the slightest. He reads the game so well more often than not he can be where he needs to be without having a slapdash desperate spring to the ball, like Lucio does for example. He doesn't have that all action Premiership style that is going to appeal to you and your particular sensitivities but he is is so good he doesn't have to.

Hmm, this is going to be difficult to square. Either he's really fast or he isn't. I'm afraid that I just don't see it i'm afraid.

What I see is a player who is skilful on the ball, tall, strong, but not aggressive enough for his size, has a tendency to ballwatch sometimes, can lose his man, and is slow on the turn and has poor recovery speed. But a lot of these things don't really matter because he's playing for barcelona, a team that has only 4 or 5 difficult games a season.

I mean I have nothing against gerard pique, I read a couple of interviews with him when he was a young player at man utd, and he seemed like a really nice, grounded guy. He was never going to get in the man utd first team in a fit, and wasn't going to wait around for three or four seasons to try. That is all fair enough.

Selling him to barcelona was the right thing for him, the right thing for man utd, and the right thing for barcelona, and I don't begrudge him his success. Six million was a more than fair price for what he was. It's a bit like what I think about diego forlan, without the belief that he's a super hero.

I just don't happen to think that he's particularly that amazing, and I think that he has room to become a radically better defender. I just don't think that's likely to happen at barcelona. I mean it never does.

Well he only plays for two teams and he looks very good for both of them and has played an integral part in multiple successes over the past couple of seasons as a result.

but the two teams that he plays for were wildly successful before he started to play for them. I mean sergio busquets plays for both of those teams as well with equal success, and I hope no-one is going to argue that he's a great player.

The comparison with Reiziger is pointless. He was a right back, often you can have a right back who is someone there for attacking purposes so his defensive skills are not so important. You cannot be lacking those in central defence

reiziger also played in a three at the back and sometimes centrally. My point is that within the system where ajax had possession of the ball nearly all the time he looked like a great player. Same with winston bogarde. it just turned out that they just looked good in that system, and actually weren't really that good at all. I contend that pique is a bit like this as well.

Well perhaps by accident Liverpool play to his strengths then, that being leaving him alone up front with no notable support, batter long balls into the channel for him to chase and hope he can beat a few players and score from nowhere.

This is just stupid. It's creating a false dichotomy where the only alternative to the endless passing which ends up with xabi alonso shooting from 30 yards through a crowd of players, is to play caveman football.

All I'm saying is that they could mix it up a bit by passing the ball directly to torres every now and again. you know, like in the final of euro 2008. Xabi alonso was well able to do it for liverpool, and spain have the players to do this. They could also stick the odd cross in the box for him to head as well. he's big and strong and is very good in the air. it wouldn't do them any harm to mix it up a bit. they might even score more than one goal a game

Not surprisingly Spain choose not to depend so heavily on one player in one way.

Ahahahahahaha. Didn't you watch the world cup?

Villa is not a weak player. He is compact and powerful and very hard to get off the ball

I never said he's weak. he's strong enough. he's just not particularly powerful. He doesn't have the option to barge past you, or burn players with pace like say wayne rooney, or ronaldo. he does his thing and is very very good at it, it's just that spain have a lot of players like that, and maybe they could find a way of adding other elements to their game.

Plus two years is a long time in a player's career, Pique has improved playing in a better side and Evans career has gone nowhere.

?????

You are not actually suggesting you would pick Evans to partner O'Shea in your fantasy central defence ahead of Pique are you?

Well it all depends on what you are looking for in a centre half. Having watched mikael silvestre for too long, I like defenders who are primarily good at defending, as passing the ball etc is only a bonus on top of that.

In a situation where your team will have to do a lot of defending and may not have a lot of the ball, I'd be happier having evans, he's a better defender. But if you're going to have 70% possession and more I'd pick pique because he can do extra bits on the ball.

You also didn't answer my questions about who you think the best central defenders in the world actually are if you do not rate Pique, Lucio etc.

hmm, it's tricky but I think at the moment there are no really outstanding centre halves at the moment. You have a lot of players who were very good over the last half decade who are either after getting a bit old, or injury prone, and there aren't many people stepping up to fill the gap. There certainly weren't too many who shone at the world cup. We'll see in a couple of years time.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

Not sure how regular he has been, playing less than half of the League games despite Vidic and Ferdinand being perpetually unavailable with injury. It's still less than John O'Shea has played despite him also being injured and deeply average

He has had some ankle problems, but is the first choice replacement for either vidic or ferdinand when he's fit. And yes john o'shea has played more than him, but that's because john o'shea was the first choice right back for one of those two seasons

I also wouldn't be so harsh on john o'shea. He's a good player. he's consistent, Decent on the ball, two footed, a good defender and very versatile. He's not particularly amazing at any one thing, but you can count on him to do a decent job.

I'd sooner have him in my team than sergio ramos. he's basically mikael silvestre in a wig.

[Duncan Gardner]

Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

Evans started 18 league games last season, 16 the year before. As Kube says, he missed a few with injury.

Quick tip for Dalliance- if you aren't sure of stats, soccerbase.com is useful. T-Viz tells me they're often wrong, although I suspect not at the ManU level.

I'd be delighted to see JE testing himself in Spain, or even Italy or Germany.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

barring injury he's going to be the first choice centre half at man utd, sooner rather than later. Why would he go anywhere else. All he'd learn anywhere else would be a new language.

[Duncan Gardner]

Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

Why wouldn't he go to Barca, Inter or Bayern? Puyol, Lucio and Lahm won't go on for ever.

[Guest]

Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

Would agree with TMk, why would he move from all the cash swilling around in the EPL?

That said even with the current lack of decent centre-backs,the likes of O'Shea and Evans along with most other EPL defenders, would be rated as mediocre at best in a World Cup context.

[Duncan Gardner]

Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

I understand that Barcelona and Internazionale, for all their current difficlties, don't exactly pay a minimum wage.

The only thing stopping John O'Shea and Jonny Evans rising above World Cup mediocrity is playing in weak international sides. Bad players don't make 300 appearances for Man United, as O'Shea has.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

hmm, you'd have to say though that last years injury crisis aside, man utd have had the strongest defence in europe over the last three or four years. he's not going to learn anything elsewhere that he isn't going to learn at man utd.

BTG, to be honest I really wouldn't agree with you. they'd walk into virtually any team in the world cup, and I'd pick them for spain.

[Guest]

Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

Yes, but EPL journeymen get almost as much as them in certain instances, whilst the top EPL players would be amongst the highest paid currently due to the lucrative TV rights.

Also why would top sides in the CL go after mediocre EPL defenders anyway?

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

eh?