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Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

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    #26
    Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

    Someone said that some teams who didnt win the World Cup were better than Spain.
    Hungary '54, Holland '74, Brazil '82 to name three.

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      #27
      Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

      Brazil 82 ? Are we drifting from best teams into the less valuable category of most entertaining teams here.

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        #28
        Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

        I take your point, but Brazil 82 were an excellent team with two glaring weaknesses (both of which Italy exploited). I would greatly enjoy a match between the two sides and particularly wonder how much possession Spain would have.

        Do you disagree on either of the other suggestions?

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          #29
          Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

          No, I don't disagree about Holland 74 because like Spain and West Germany 90 they had truly world class players in each of the three key areas of the pitch giving their team a proper spine and a balance about them.

          Hungary 54 and especially Brazil 82 I see a bit like France 98 or Argentina 86, fantastic in areas but not as balanced overall as a team. Brazil 82 was a team jammed with too many attacking midfielders for my liking, probably the reason that Falcao was my favourite in that team as he was the most European - he could defend, attack, make the play, the lot.

          Were we to match these teams today and overlook the cardiovascular differences between teams from two different eras, I think Spain would absolutely shred Brazil on the counter attack. Brazil were beautiful and all but that type of football was a pretty outdated one even 28 years ago. they were undone by pragmatism and let's be honest, football has not got any less pragmatic in the intervening years.

          Hungary 54 is more difficult as they played in a truly different age from the other pair. All the same they were really never geared up for defending either and were another team who fell to an inferior but more pragmatic side. I struggle to balance out old and modern era teams though.

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            #30
            Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

            ursus arctos wrote:
            I take your point, but Brazil 82 were an excellent team with two glaring weaknesses (both of which Italy exploited). I would greatly enjoy a match between the two sides and particularly wonder how much possession Spain would have.
            Hence we should include Italia '82, not ignoring the fact that Brazil were brilliant until they cam up versus Rossi & co.

            Spain are very good technically, but no great cutting edge in this World Cup. But hats off for their passing game.

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              #31
              Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

              Though the category was teams that had lost the final.

              Dalliance, I agree that Spain would be deadly on the counter against Brazil 82, but I also think that Falcao, Eder and co would give this defence fits. They did get 2 against Italy, after all. I still think it would be a very interesting game.

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                #32
                Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

                Id go so far as saying Spain had nine and a half men for most of the tournament because Torres may as well not of been there and Busquets bad enough to pay for England.

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                  #33
                  Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

                  Brazil 82 would have the same problem that Argentina had here. There would be one holding midfielder being crushed by a stampede on the counter, not only by 2010 Spain but also by the current German side.

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                    #34
                    Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

                    Ok Hungary 1954 were unbeaten in four years and i believe stayed unbeaten for two years after the 1954 final. If that is wrong someone correct cos i am not sure on that. They lost one game and it was the game that mattered most. They were 2-0 up in that match but blew it. Its hard to say a team like that had a weakness when they played for so long unbeaten but when the competitive edge was brought in they faltered. They were a revolutionary team and i would have no problem with saying they could give Spain a game but there is always that thought. When it mattered, they lost. Truly great teams dont lose when it matters.

                    Holland 72 - 78. They won nothing. Thats right. Nothing. In 72 and 74 West Germany won the Euros and World Cup. 76 Holland were beaten in semis and in 78 the final again. The Dutch were good but they never once brought home the trophy despite having many chances. Comparing them to winners like Spain just doesnt add up for me.

                    Brazil 82 is the classic one for me. They didnt even get to the semi finals. Have you seen the defending. It is totally amateur stuff. No marking on the first, stupidity on the second and woeful marking on the third, complete with stupid claim for offside. If your attack isnt good enough to protect your soft behind then you are not a great side. Spain are so dominant in possession that they never allow anyone a lot of views at their back line.

                    Spain have won two major tournaments on the bounce. West Germany and France did it but both of them had home help. Spain had neither and won the World Cup on a different continent. In terms of winners they are in my top 3 World Champions ever. 3. Spain 2. Brazil 1970 1. Brazil 1958-62.

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                      #35
                      Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

                      Spain are definitely a very good side. Better than Italy '06, Brazil '02, France '98 and Brazil '94 in my view. Nowhere near as good as West Germany '90, though.

                      I think that West German side had a real dynamism to go with the quality of its players that gave it more than one means of winning a game. This Spain team still look like they can be neutralised pretty effectively if the midfield is starved of time on the ball. If things don't go their way (v Switzerland), I think they run out of ideas.

                      That said, I like Spain's positive approach and although they're committed to that accursed 4-2-3-1 formation like everyone else, at least one of the two is Xabi Alonso so it's not an entirely destructive approach. The same applies to Germany and Khedira.

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                        #36
                        Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

                        To Bogzilla.

                        You say that Spain's midfield can be neutralised pretty effectively if you deny them space and time on the ball. This goes for every single team in the land. What makes them so good is that they deny you any space with their pressing game and then tire you out by making you chase them all over the park. They did not score one first half goal in all of the knockout rounds. They were up against good defences but they just stayed patient and wore them down.

                        They dont run out of ideas and when a team has gone something like 40 games with only 2 defeats and no draws and has won their last two major tournaments trying to pick holes in them seems a strange pastime to me. What made them look a little laboured at times was that Torres was so injured. He gives them something a wee bit different. They can whip a ball in and he can attack it whereas Villa will never do that meaning they keep everything on the floor. That being said they won 6 in a row after Swiss. There will always be the odd game for any team where things dont go well. Its just sport. The best teams recover from setbacks and win when it matters. Spain have done that.

                        Nowhere near as good as West Germany 1990 who won it on their own continent and didnt have Euros to their name either. All World Cup winning sides were good and to say Spain are nowhere near as good as them is amazing. Dynamism dont matter if you cant get the ball. Spain and Barcelona have a remarkable ability to make their opponents look like sunday league players when they are on the ball. Its down to the constant pressure they put you under. Then when they get it they look like Gods cos they keep it so much better than the team who just gave it away under pressure. Even when Spain/Barca have struggled and lost due to a tough digging in performance from other side, their opponents still looked foolish in possession.

                        They are the best in the World, have been for years and its now beyond debate. Perhaps if they win Euros then everyone will finally give them the standing they deserve.

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                          #37
                          Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

                          Brazil 82 would have the same problem that Argentina had here. There would be one holding midfielder being crushed by a stampede on the counter, not only by 2010 Spain but also by the current German side.
                          We have no way of knowing what sort of formation Tele Santana would have played in the 2010 context. Most likely he'd have done like everybody else, and deploy two holding midfielders (Falcao would be one of them).

                          It's an entertaining but futile past-time to imagine how a side from three decades ago would fare today. Player types change, tactics change, positions become obsolete (remember the mighty libero?).

                          In the context of the early 1980s, that Brazil team was fantastic, and, like Hungary, blew one important game.

                          Comment


                            #38
                            Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

                            I think Spain will go down as one of the more distinctive and memorable winners of the tournament, despite the lack of goals. It's not that common you get World Cup winners as flag-bearers for a particular, specific way of playing. But their possession game - tiki-taka as yer Bafana Nesta Bafana types and actual Spaniards call it - will be remembered in the way that Italy's methods in 2006 and France's in 1998 weren't.

                            France 2000 is quite a good comparison - who I'd still say were overall the most complete international side of the past couple of decades.

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                              #39
                              Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

                              multipleman78 wrote:
                              They are the best in the World, have been for years and its now beyond debate. Perhaps if they win Euros then everyone will finally give them the standing they deserve
                              When Spain lost two of their opening three matches in Euro 2008 qualifying (against Ultonia and Sweden), some of OTF's leading pundits suggested they would struggle to qualify. In the end they did so comfortably, winning eight of the last nine. The side embarrassed in Belfast, twice giving away a lead, included Casillas, Ramos, Puyol, Xavi, Fabregas, Alonso, Villa and Torres.

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                                #40
                                Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

                                There's no point in even talking about brazil 82, because they'd get slaughtered by a decent championship side by virtue of the fact that they would run at least twice as much, at nearly twice the speed.

                                This spanish team are great at what they do, but they lack any real strength, or pace which would elevate them to a team that can play in several different ways. They're no ajax 95 for instance.

                                But like that ajax team, they're not great in defence. For all their possession they get caught out horribly. It has to be remembered that in both the semi final and in the final their centre halves lack of concentration, and near total lack of any pace was horribly exposed first by ozil and secondly by robben, and in both occasion they dealt with the situation by committing last man fouls that they got away with. that's not good defending, that's relying on the referee to get away with it, or relying on iker casillas to save you.

                                But while international football seems to be going down the toilet as players disappear further up their own arses, (with the assistance of Nike, adidas, pringles......) Spain look like a proper international team that would have shone in any era, even if they are a bit one note.

                                Comment


                                  #41
                                  Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

                                  I cannot understand why you continue to suggest that the Spanish defence is not up to much. Again, as I said earlier on this thread, throwing up the occasional example of where they were under threat in games against Germany and Holland who had the best and most on form attacking players in the tournament is not indicative of how these games went as a whole.

                                  Spain yielded few chances in either game and very few in the tournament as a whole. How can you argue with a single avoidable goal conceded in 7 matches ?

                                  This spanish team are great at what they do, but they lack any real strength, or pace
                                  I assume you are meaning the midfield as the defence and Villa and Torres are hardly lightweights.

                                  It's nonsense anyway. Strength is not nearly as important for this team as it is with most. You need strength if you are going to get caught in possession regularly and have to wrestle bigger opponents to retain the ball. Spain do not do this so it is not. Xavi is pretty diminutive but how often do you ever see him getting tangled up in possession battles. He is a ghost, you can't nail him because he gets the ball and moves it on before you can get close to him.

                                  And pace. Well Ramos is fast. Torres is fast. Pique is quick. Villa is quick. The team as a whole is quick mentally which matters more.

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                                    #42
                                    Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

                                    Isn't every goal avoidable?

                                    Comment


                                      #43
                                      Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

                                      villa is almost exactly the same size and weight as michael owen.

                                      Dalliance, sergio ramos is not a good defender and relies too much on referee's unwillingness to punish him for what is bad play covered up by fouls. In that game against germany, not alone did he bundle ozil to the ground, but he should have been booked for clattering podolski with a horrible challenge, and then under no pressure whatsoever, he just grabbed miroslav klose and threw him on the ground in the penalty area. He's a fucking cabbage who has been mollycoddled by playing at a big club where he is free from refereeing hindrance.

                                      Puyol is just one of those last ditch hero defenders who is always trying to make the big tackle, running towards the ball, long hair flowing, as caught up in the idea of being barcelona captain as much as john terry is. like terry he's as slow as a wet week, and gets caught horribly on the turn. He's just fortunate that he plays for a team where the opposition rarely gets the ball, or doesn't attack in numbers out of fear of the counter attack.

                                      pique is a good ball player, but his defensive instincts are not very good at all. he's like john o'shea without the killer instinct. This is why he was so far behind johnny evans when it came to breaking through into the man utd first team. He doesn't know when to go for the ball, or when to let it go and crucially, no defender who spends much time at barcelona is ever going to really be a top class defender, because they don't get enough practice. He also is as slow as a wet week in november in skegness.

                                      If they played for an english club, you'd crucify all of them, for the colour of their passport. But most of this doesn't matter when they're playing for a country where no-one gets past their midfield, and even when they do fuck up, they can foul the player and get away with it, and if that doesn't work iker casillas will save them. they win the games, but it doesn't mean that they're a great defence by any manner or means.

                                      And I don't care if strength isn't as important for this team.... all that shows you is that they have found one way to play around it. the point is surely that if they had some faster stronger players, then they could play in more varied ways. I.e. Like barcelona when they had henry, eto'o and messi up front.

                                      Comment


                                        #44
                                        Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

                                        The Mighty Kubelgog!!! wrote:
                                        [quote] Dalliance, Vidic is not a good defender and relies too much on referee's unwillingness to punish him for what is bad play covered up by fouls. He's a fucking cabbage who has been mollycoddled by playing at a big club where he is free from refereeing hindrance. /quote]

                                        Fixed it for you.

                                        Not that I'm still upset about the Carling Cup or anything.

                                        Comment


                                          #45
                                          Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

                                          heh, that was a horrendous decision, but one you get all the time in spanish football. Then again I didn't see vidic get away with that completely, jump straight up and ask that the villa player be booked for diving though, did you?

                                          Comment


                                            #46
                                            Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

                                            Whether talking about Ramos, Puyol, Lucio, Samuel....indeed any defender who is not English or Premiership based and you thus do not like, your stock answer is they only get where they do because of refereeing blindness or stupidity.

                                            It's quite the most pathetic of arguments.

                                            pique is a good ball player, but his defensive instincts are not very good at all. he's like john o'shea without the killer instinct.
                                            This is a comment beyond parody.

                                            And I don't care if strength isn't as important for this team.... all that shows you is that they have found one way to play around it. the point is surely that if they had some faster stronger players, then they could play in more varied ways. I.e. Like barcelona when they had henry, eto'o and messi up front.
                                            So if they have found a way to play around it then why is it still supposedly a problem ? What about the fast and strong players I mentioned in my last post ? Why do they need varied ways when they have managed to win 51 of their last 55 games. Does this sound like a team struggling to find new ways to get results ?

                                            Comment


                                              #47
                                              Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

                                              I reckon if Spain had been allowed to play as they they wanted to play against the Dutch team who should have been penalised like they should have been (ie down to 9 men after 45 minutes) that final would have been 5-0.

                                              Sorry, but that's the way that Final should have ended up.

                                              Comment


                                                #48
                                                Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

                                                Whether talking about Ramos, Puyol, Lucio, Samuel....indeed any defender who is not English or Premiership based and you thus do not like, your stock answer is they only get where they do because of refereeing blindness or stupidity.

                                                Well to be fair dalliance if the cap fits.... good defenders don't tear a forward's shirt off him at a corner. Good defenders are able to find other means to win headers. You can't get credit for a clean sheet if your game plan involves you running the risk of giving away a red card in the first half.

                                                Sergio Ramos racks up 13 or 14 yellow cards every league season playing for real madrid, and if he played for anyone else, and wasn't a hero for spain, he'd be on five or six reds a season. He could have lost that semi final for spain, and should have been sent off multiple times in that game. This is not the behaviour of a good defender, it is the behaviour of a lucky one.

                                                But this isn't a foreign thing. Even john terry's disintegration as a footballer can be traced back to a pre-occupation with seeing what he can get away with as england captain, rather than going for the ball. And I'm not talking about the sort of fouls where you take one for the team that carvalho does, I mean the sort of easily avoidable fouls which you commit because you've been caught out of position.

                                                This is a comment beyond parody.

                                                Why though? John O'Shea would never be outpaced and outfoxed and make a cunt of himself like This by oscar cardozo at a corner like that. I have furniture that is faster and sharper than oscar cardozo.

                                                He's a good ball player dalliance, but he's not much of a centre half. If barcelona and spain have shown us anything over the last couple of years it's that anyone can play in defence for them behind xavi and iniesta.

                                                So if they have found a way to play around it then why is it still supposedly a problem ?

                                                You just don't pay attention. My point is that they are extremely good at playing one way, largely because they can't play any other. this puts them behind teams that I really enjoyed watching like say ajax in the mid nineties, or barcelona. If they could play other ways they might be a bit more interesting to watch sometimes. My point is that even though they don't necessarily need a plan B in international football, they might be more interesting to watch sometimes if they had one.

                                                Comment


                                                  #49
                                                  Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

                                                  The Mighty Kubelgog!!! wrote:
                                                  If barcelona and spain have shown us anything over the last couple of years it's that anyone can play in defence for them behind xavi and iniesta.
                                                  Well, not quite anyone.

                                                  TMK, would you really, truly pick John O'Shea over Gerard Pique in your team? I mean the current O'Shea and the current Pique. Honestly?

                                                  Comment


                                                    #50
                                                    Spain 2010: one of all-time Top 5 WC Teams?

                                                    not for barcelona or spain, pique's main job for those two teams is to pass the ball out of defence, and sometimes go for the long ball to the wings. He's good at that.

                                                    But he's really not much cop as a centre half. until he was 16 he would have played every game in a side that won 16-0. of course he doesn't really know how to defend.

                                                    I wouldn't be too happy too see him playing for man utd, and I'd pick o'shea ahead of him for ireland, because I doubt that he'd be much use to a team with the requirements of ireland. I'd put him in defensive midfield maybe.

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