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    England vs Germany... again

    The Mighty Kubelgog!!! wrote:
    E10, you have to bear in mind that dunga and maradona are both world cup winning captains, they have a huge amount of authority over the players in their squad. Also the dynamic in those countries is very different. They have a lot of success, and aren't desperate for a messiah in the same way. A manager like dunga can say the team is more important than ronaldinho/ronaldo/adriano and people will agree with it. It's not like they've missed any of those players.
    I can still see situations which may arise between now and the trophy presentation (if they win the requisite matches in between of course) where Argentina at the very least might regret not having Javier Zanetti or Esteban Cambiasso to call off the bench. There's been talk of them maybe playing two deep midfielders against Germany to provide less susceptibility to counter-attacks, and then everyone realised the second midfielder (alongside Mascherano) would have to be Mario fucking Bolatti, and shut up about it.

    tet1963 wrote:
    1. No team can compete in the Premier League unless the club breaks even each season. This is a requirement in Germany and has the happy effect of forcing clubs to develop German players, keeps wages at a reasonable ratio to turnover and means you can watch a Bundesliga game for £13 not the £40-50 some clubs ask for.
    Welcome, first of all, tet. But does anyone else think that if English clubs were told to break even or they couldn't play in the Prem, one of their first reactions would be to increase ticket prices?

    The Mighty Kubelgog!!! wrote:
    but barcelona pumped [Lionel Messi] full of growth hormones. the clubs would have waited until he was 14 or 15 like other players. not everyone is signed at 13.
    No, they didn't. They paid for treatment he'd already been prescribed by a doctor in Rosario, because Messi has (still has, today, even though he's off the treatment now) a congenital genetic disorder which is present in around 1 in every billion people (I'm not exaggerating). The treatment wasn't something he was given to bulk him up - it was prescribed to him because if he hadn't been given it, he would never have grown any taller than five feet nothing.

    The Mighty Kubelgog!!! wrote:
    [Messi] could get [his treatment] on the NHS if he lived in england.
    Given what I've just typed above, I find that extremely unlikely. Especially without an EU passport.

    Comment


      England vs Germany... again

      I hve a sneaking feeling a few clubs may fnd themselves losing enough fans this coming seasn without raising prices any higher.

      People forget the premiership built on the Gazza prompted hysteria for its early years. I suspect this latest failure might well impact on TV audences and crowds.

      Comment


        England vs Germany... again

        It would be churlish to suggest that keeping Brazil to within a one goal lead and only shipping 11 goals in the Group Of Death (well, death warmed up in retrospect) isn't better than anyone imagined.
        England would have probably got a 3-0 loss somewhere in that grou
        p

        One of the things notable about this World Cup is that pretty much everyone has been able to defend to a decent degree, even Australia who looked horribly open in their first game against Germany tightened up considerably after that.
        An interesting stat is that only twice have a side who have taken the lead not been able to defend it and then gone on to lose their game and both times - Denmark and Nigeria - it came in significant part because they had a man sent off while leading. So yes, 12 goals is a lot to ship in the group stages of this World Cup and not a success.

        dalliance - shawcross, zamora, whoever - the point is they're not lampard, terry, gerrard - proven failures who've wasted chance after chance. shawcross and zamora would be happy to be involved, would enthusiastically carry out whatever plan they were given without moaning about being played in the wrong position or organising a back-room rebellion against the manager.
        Sorry garcia, this doesn't make sense at all. This is like saying a donkey has never won The Derby because a donkey has never been entered for it rather than because it is, well, a donkey and not very fast.
        If England were to go and play another World Cup starting tomorrow you would go with pretty much the same group of players give or take a few changes at the tail end of the 24. You would go with a heavy heart admittedly, and cross your fingers and hope the vestiges of talent we know they possess could flicker in some small way.

        when you see blackburn's keith andrews dominate real madrid's lassana diarra at the stade de france you have to re-examine what you believed about gradations of ability in football. england's caste of stars have been there for years and have grown lazy, corrupt and degenerate. kick them all the fuck out and start again.
        Well you know, Keith Andrews is among the best that Ireland have so they are following the same selection policy that all international managers do based upon club form. Quoting an individual incident where journeyman overcomes superstar is a TMK tactic, I'm surprised at you, especially when there was anything French involved.
        Yes of course journeymen can have their day but talent generally prevails in the end, otherwise we would not have Argentina, Spain, Germany, Brazil and the Dutch as quarter finalists as most would have predicted with some conviction beforehand.

        The Irish players have, for the most part, played and grown up in the same English footballing system as the English players, yet Ireland is not so bad at keeping the football. At the 2002 World Cup: 53%-47% for Ireland against Germany and 55%-45% against against those slick passers of the ball Spain.
        Well England had at least an equal share of possession against the Germans.

        They think they are too good to actually have to play football. They just want to defend heroicly or score goals. All the stuff in between they consider below themselves. That's for the Essiens, Petrovs and Mascheranos to do
        .

        All this talk about a squad full of Billy Big Boots is really all about Gerrard and Lampard isn't it? I can't think of any other player in the England squad who did not at least try and fail for reason of fitness, injury, poor form or non-existent talent or tactical awareness.
        So yes, I agree wholly that Gerrard and Lampard should somehow have worked out a better way to play together but I blame the manager for not at least seeing that the pair of numpties could not. I blame the manager for Barry too, he was trying to act the role of anchor outnumbered in a 4 man midfield when he was not fully fit, generally outnumbered because his defence would not step up and help and crassly pushed forward to help in attack when he should never be over the half way line.
        So the reasons are numerous and complex.

        the other thing that is difficult to stomach is how fucking unwatchable the football is. england were the most unwatchable team at euro 2000, at the 2002 world cup they were unspeakable to watch, at the 2006 world cup it was pencils up the nose time and this time they reached new lows.
        Is this a new thing though ? In a quarter of a century watching England when they are good they are efficient, but the only times I found them actually enjoyable for more than the odd aberration like the 5-1 over Germany was some of the 96-98 era matches under Venables and Hoddle.

        Anyway, regarding Gerrard. Even when he was 25, at the peak of his powers, a permanently injured, 33 year old Roy Keane would regularly make a fool out of him. A sign of a great player is how good he is when he loses that extra pace he had when he was younger. It didn't seem to matter for Zidane in 2006. He ran rings around the Brazilians and Spanish. At this World Cup, one of the best players, if not the best player, is Diego Forlan, who seems to get better with every passing year. Gerrard however, is beginning to get seriously shown up. He's the English Robbie Keane in a way, a player who is exactly the same now as he was when he was 20.
        Well he has had one bad, injury blighted season with Liverpool. It is too early to say that he is in permanent decline. When he is then all the above is true but it was always going to be true, Gerrard is a momentum player who thrives more on an all action than an all thinking style. He's limited for sure but what he does he does well. What's the point of comparing him with more cerebral players like Zidane ? They have little in common and comparing them is invidious. If I compared Zidane poorly against Maradona it would be both unfair and not necessarily a suggestion that the poorer player was not still a great one.

        You work with what players have and Benitez surrounded him with Alonso and Mascherano who could do the things that Gerrard could not - and vice versa. He prospered as a result but England do not have an Alonso or a Mascherano and Steven Gerrard cannot be re-invented as some new type of midfielder at the age of 30.

        Ferguson would be the ideal manager for England. He managed to get the best out of the likes of Beckham and Cristiano Ronaldo.
        Well he did but he could work with them every day, he could be nice or nasty to them as he was their boss and he could sign players who would play alongside them and do the stuff they did not do well. No international manager has any of these privileges.

        Some excellent points upthread, particularly by Bryan, about the bertie big-bollocks tendency among England's players, and the belief that the tidying-up stuff is for the Mascheranos and Essiens.
        Again, I think a big part of this is that this sort of defensive midfielder role is like the number 10 fantasista role, one that is pretty alien in the history of our game and one that we do not do at all well as a result. I genuinely think that it's not about egos, it's about lack of knowledge and understanding - lack of composure on the ball too of course. The best defensive midfielder England has had in the past generation was Hargreaves and we know he did not follow the same coaching route.

        Comment


          England vs Germany... again

          Until you reform English football to make the national side a priority and develop players from 5 years + along Dutch/German/French/Spanish lines we will never win a major tournament.
          I don't really think that many people would ever put the national side as a priority in this country though would they.

          What england needs is for clubs to take more of a chance with their own young players. just as an example, Because they're mean, and needing to turn a large profit, and operating from a position of relative strength, Man utd have a decent record of bringing through young players, or at least giving them a chance.
          You see maybe this might be the case but when you look at Italy you see a nation where young players really struggle to get a breakthrough with top sides. If Manchester United have a lot of ex-players kicking their heels in the Championship, pretty much ever club in Italy from the lower half of the Serie A downwards have decent amounts of ex-Inter, Milan or Juve youngsters who were never given a chance. No-one in England could ever have the career someone like Nicola Ventola, constantly farmed out year after year.

          No ok, Italy were rubbish this year but they have followed this policy historically and had plenty of international return on it.

          but boerd, all i'm trying to say is that when a player shows for the ball these england players can pass the ball all day. The problem is that no-one is showing.Yes, this is a good point that has come through this thread and I am not disagreeing with you on that at all.
          I disagree with this. Extended possession is not a common thing in England because possession has never been prized enough. It is not prized because teams know that it is equally unprized by the other teams, so if you give it away then you know it will come back quickly enough. Yes of course the big teams do it better than the small teams but their ethos is still very direct attacking, and by direct I mean quickly forward, direct running, getting crosses in so moves begin and end quite quickly.

          The concept that sometimes you have to go backwards to go forwards is not one that has ever really taken hold in England.

          Comment


            England vs Germany... again

            The concept that sometimes you have to go backwards to go forwards is not one that has ever really taken hold in England.
            I blame Liverpool for this.

            I remember the pass 'n' move, days with McManaman, Redknapp & Fowler. They would often do 20 passes, and move only 3 inches forward. That was posession for posession's sake.

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              England vs Germany... again

              Well Liverpool won plenty of European Cups with this approach in the 70s and 80s.

              Comment


                England vs Germany... again

                It is not prized because teams know that it is equally unprized by the other teams, so if you give it away then you know it will come back quickly enough.
                This.

                The concept that sometimes you have to go backwards to go forwards is not one that has ever really taken hold in England.
                And this.

                I was having a run for the first time in years on Wednesday night with a team I used to play for.

                The Entertainers are predominantly Italians. I had forgotten what a culture shock it had been to join them a decade or so ago and be yelled at for NOT hanging into the ball, for NOT being willing to pass sideways and backwards, at pace and accurately, to draw players out of position and create gaps.

                It really is a cultural thing.

                Of course, Englidsh football had a player like that who might have influenced football in a positive way, but instead we nicknamed him the crab, pilloried him for a ludicrous red card and laughed at his premature baldness.

                Nowadays Italian coaches seem very glad to have his input. Perhaps the fact that Ray Wilkins is not coach of the under 21s, and Stuart Pearce is, speaks volumes.

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                  England vs Germany... again

                  If this has already been discussed either in this thread or others, I apologize for repetition. It will appear naive for most of you, but as one who respects the English game and have cheered for the National team, hear me out. It is very sad to see England play so pathetically.

                  I see a parallel between the old NASL and the English Premier League. In the NASL there were very few American players who got much playing time as the rules said there only had to be 3 North Americans on the pitch. Consequently, there were very few 'star' US players. Ricky Davis, Jeff Durgan, and Perry Van Der Beck did well supporting the star international players for their club, but they were seriously outclassed when playing for the US National team.

                  The Premier League does not even have that limit for English players. Lampard and Gerrard run riot for their club teams but look utterly lost and useless when playing for their national team.

                  There are about as many starting American goalkeepers in the Premier League as English ones - that is still strange to me.

                  The MLS seems to have mostly American players on the pitch and that is a good thing. While the best American players play abroad, most of them started in the MLS.

                  It seems that in order for England to have more depth, they have to have real playing time and not be on loan to a second division team. I guess this brings it all back to that argument from another thread about how the Champions League trumps preparing for the WC.

                  Hard to see much improvement for the England team as long as there's difficulty competing w/ other internationals for playing time.

                  Comment


                    England vs Germany... again

                    dalliance and Shaka's posts just a little way up in this absorbing thread are spot on, in my opinion.

                    Comment


                      England vs Germany... again

                      Definitely. Been hard to find the time to fully follow this thread but so much of it has been spot on.

                      Comment


                        England vs Germany... again

                        Coaching accreditation can be done through the UEFA method.
                        There is some merit to this however

                        The problem comes before the kids are spotted. The FA doesn't work with young players until they're fifteen. Only allow UEFA accredited coaches to be involved with kids football, and don't allow non-coaches to attend.
                        The FA does work with kids under 15 but it does so through its representatives which are FA qualified coaches at clubs. The issue with this is the qualifications and how coaches get them.

                        The minimum requirement for coaches if a club wants to get FA charter status (more of this below) is level 1, which is my qualification. Basically, this covers units on basic First Aid, Child protection, dealing with parents and taking a training session along with a few suggested drills. It is a piece of piss and rarely does anyone fail.

                        FA Charter Status has a lot of benefits for clubs as far as extra funding and sponsorship are concerned. It is, however, another rubber-stamping exercise. Our club has just achieved Charter status and, the week before we did, I saw an older player from our club abuse a ref only to be backed up by his managers and the rest of the team.

                        The ref cancelled the match as he was getting so much abuse but my younger players had seen players from the same club allowed to abuse the ref with no recriminations from the coaches. We , as a club, had no trouble getting a Charter. We just had to provide paperwork.

                        Basically, level 1 coach qualification and FA charter qualification are for clubs to go "yeah, yeah, yeah" to respect, fair play and skills directives and for the FA to feel that they are doing the right thing.

                        I disagree somewhat with not having a national football centre. If England want to have a better national team, they have to have their own Clairefontaine and Coverciano. These would also help coaches but, if England want children across the grass roots to be more skilful whether they are going to supply Burton or not, they have to look at the coaching across the board at junior clubs and keep looking closely.

                        Also, very simply, they have to delay playing 11-a-side competitive matches with near full-size pitches, goals and balls until, at the earliest, 13.

                        Comment


                          England vs Germany... again

                          Kurt Bafokeng wrote:
                          This time I don't want no penalty affair, although those are sweet, too. I want a clear-cut 4-0, maybe with a consolation from Rooney because I like the guy.

                          I want all those ridiculously overpaid Lampards and Coles with salaries the size of South Africa's GDP to get found out. All the media hype about the best league in the world - and the lazy nonsense that this makes the few English footballers playing there the best in the world, too.

                          Even more than that I want the idea of running clubs as companies, floating on the stock market and eventually snapped up by faceless investors to get found out. And the idea that you can turn your proud history, your legacy, your supporters' deepest feelings into money, milking them until they are bankrupt or priced out of the game.

                          Most of all though I want all the historical nonsense to be found out. How England were always unlucky in those matches, and German tankerism prevailed. And how winning on penalties doesn't really count, at least far less than a 5-1 thrashing in a qualifier.

                          If this game can deliver that, it probably needs to be 4-0. Bring. It. On.
                          This.

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