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Mad Men Season 4 - Spoilers Everywhere

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    #26
    Mad Men Season 4 - Spoilers Everywhere

    I quite like Don's potential new love interest. She seems like she'd be quite good for him - telling him to bog off when he was trying to weasel up to her flat on the first date.

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      #27
      Mad Men Season 4 - Spoilers Everywhere

      Isn't that just the difference between the married Don and potential future boyfriend Don? He's no longer just a night of passion in the eyes of women who know that he is divorced.

      Comment


        #28
        Mad Men Season 4 - Spoilers Everywhere

        The feel is rather different now in the slightly grungier new offices. The interior design obviously is a character as well (remember the photocopier in copywriter Peggy's office?). It seems to me that the new, struggling agency with its less glitzy and more chaotic office symbolises the break with the certainties of the 1950s as '60s take hold.

        Interesting choice of song at the end: An American pop number that sounds like British invasion clone.

        BTW, I'm intrigued about where Betty's character is going. Her depression seemed peripheral in the first season (therapy notwithstanding), and then was overshadowed by her growing realisation of Don's infidelities – she didn't have much to smile about even without her depression. Now she has the new husband (or BF; are they married?) who gives her everything and treats her with utmost respect, and she's still totally down.

        It's the sort of show that will run a storyline about depression without, erm, advertising that it is doing so.

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          #29
          Mad Men Season 4 - Spoilers Everywhere

          Interesting choice of song at the end: An American pop number that sounds like British invasion clone.

          It was an American pop/country number by a British band: John D. Loudermilk's Tobacco Road by The Nashville Teens.

          I'm reserving comment for another episode or so. At the mo the plot seems to have gone seriously Greek, what with Betty turning into Medea and Don's attack of hubris.

          Comment


            #30
            Mad Men Season 4 - Spoilers Everywhere

            One of the show's weaknesses has been the soundtrack. Just about everything else (costumes, mood, stories, acting,...) has been very good to excellent. They could have done so much better with just a little bit more 60s sounds in the background, but it looks like they're off to a good start in season 4.

            Tobacco Road's became one of the most famous 60s early psych tunes by the Blues Magoos, a local (NY) band, but that version only came about 2-3 years after the current season.

            The casting was great for this show. The main character is basically a more serious version of Cary Grant's man in the grey flannel suit, who was the original Madison Ave period icon. Hamm's resemblance with Cary Grant is uncanny (particularly from his profile), there were several shots in the series that played this up, particularly when he hopped into the convertible on the way to Palm Springs.

            He's paired with the obvious complementary character: a Grace Kelly lookalike. Like Draper she is a more serious and colder character. She's also a bit of a Stepford character. At this point she's unlikely to get back with Draper, if it doesn't work with Henry (it does look like a rocky road) she'll probably pair up with a wealthier socialite down the road. She's too hard a person (and mother) to ever want to get back with Don.

            Peggy can't really start her own agency; this is 1963, it would take another 15-20 yrs before a woman could pull this off. There is a bit of mid-70s ad agency action in Tales of the City (one of the best TV miniseries ever made) that showed how this was still a very masculine and misogenic domain more than a decade later, even in San Francisco. Interestingly enough there are a lot of similarity between ad agency characters from the two series, like the aging main partners.

            The one major weakness/inconsistency in the plot though is about Peggy's relationship with Doc, how come he's not in the picture since they were sleeping together?

            Pete was going to be the obvious choice for the new firm because of his social background as well, and Sal couldn't be brought back because he's gay and middle-class italian.

            While some of the minor characters in the series were likable (like Trudy, the teacher and Rachel), none of the major ones were, their flaws were clearly portrayed.

            PS for those who want to catch up on the series:
            http://watch-series.com/serie/mad_men

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              #31
              Mad Men Season 4 - Spoilers Everywhere

              Tobacco Road's became one of the most famous 60s early psych tunes by the Blues Magoos, a local (NY) band, but that version only came about 2-3 years after the current season.

              The Nashville Teen's version — from the show — hit #16 in Billboard in October 1964. Which is close enough to show's time priod as makes no difference.

              Comment


                #32
                Mad Men Season 4 - Spoilers Everywhere

                The one major weakness/inconsistency in the plot though is about Peggy's relationship with Doc, how come he's not in the picture since they were sleeping together?
                Well, the show leapt ahead by nine months. Peggy evidently is not sleeping with Duck anymore (it was rather casual anyway) and has had a rather good make-over.

                While some of the minor characters in the series were likable (like Trudy, the teacher and Rachel), none of the major ones were, their flaws were clearly portrayed.
                I disagree. Don is very likable despite his serious flaws. I think most viewers are in hi corner. Peggy is a sympathetic major character, and in many ways the show's moral centre.

                I even like Betty, who is clearly depressed and confused, rather than by nature mean and vindictive (though we saw a brutal streak in her when she shot the pigeons, when she was fiercely loyal to her children). We saw in season 1 that she is a good person; Don's betrayals were just too much for her to deal with, seeing that she was already depressed. She is so chasing for the Stepford Wives ideal — it's her identity — but Don destroyed that. Her resentment is understandable. Now her depression is getting in the way of that dream, because the second marriage isn't going to last.

                Good point about Pete and Sal, by the way, and supported by the reasons Bert Cooper gave for not firing Pete in the first season.

                Comment


                  #33
                  Mad Men Season 4 - Spoilers Everywhere

                  I like Betty too. She's an interesting character and illustrative of shitwomen dealt with at that time.

                  $100 bonus? That's worth about $700 today. More than I got for a bonus last year, but kind of insulting.

                  Comment


                    #34
                    Mad Men Season 4 - Spoilers Everywhere

                    I don't think the amount of the bonus was really the issue.

                    In 1960 Paul Goodman's Growing up Absurd was published. It was one of those books that you look back on now and think "yeah, he got it pretty much spot on." In it Goodman argued that Organization Men, like Don Draper, the Beats and so-called "Juvenile Delinquents" of the 50s were just differing responses to affluence without purpose or meaning. He also predicted they were only the forerunners of what was likely to be coming.

                    It's 1964, turning '65 and — in my memory — that's when things started to get weird, which they do when you're sixteen but it wasn't just that. The first serious race riots happened in late summer 64, as did the Gulf of Tonkin incident. LBJ's inaugaration in January. Then Bringing It All Back Home and The Byrds, everything just kept getting stranger. More real yet somehow less believable. And Grant, the kid down the road, is the heir apparent to all that. He represents Goodman's absurd tomorrow. One way or another Don, Roger and the rest are moving out, they just don't know it yet. This series — and the next two or three — will show us how they handle it.

                    Comment


                      #35
                      Mad Men Season 4 - Spoilers Everywhere

                      It wasn't? What was the point then? I mean of the bonus in particular. I got that she was shattered that she thought their quicky meant something and he didn't even have the decency to discuss it.

                      Was she - I don't even know her name - on the show last season? I have only seen some of last season and am trying to catch up now.

                      Comment


                        #36
                        Mad Men Season 4 - Spoilers Everywhere

                        Giving her money then with no reference at all to what happened the night before, made her feel like a whore. It wouldn't matter if it was $10 or $1000.

                        Comment


                          #37
                          Mad Men Season 4 - Spoilers Everywhere

                          Yeah, I thought of that, but he told her before that happened that he was going to give her a bonus so, it's nuanced, I suppose. In any event, I think her feeling like he was making her out to be a whore would have been worse if it had been a lot of money.

                          There's also the implication that the bonus was a lot lower because they had to blow so much for a party to impress Mr Lucky Strike, which doesn't really have anything to do with her in particular, but relates to another plot thread.

                          The show got be interested in the history of divorce in the last 100 years. This seems to be the most comprehensive and reliable paper. Its long. I haven't read it all.

                          http://bpp.wharton.upenn.edu/jwolfers/Papers/MarriageandDivorce%28JEP%29.pdf

                          What my hour of research yielded:
                          [ul][ul][li]The divorce rate skyrocked in in the 1970s, but has dropped since then. This suggests the sudden introduction of no fault divorce unleashed some pent-up demand for divorce, but the scientific-looking analysis I found indicates that it hasn't really made an impact in the long run[/li]
                          [li]The rate looks so high in the 1970s and 1980s partially because it was relatively low in the preceeding decades. If the rising trend from the late 19th century had been followed on a line straight through, it would predict roughly where we are right now[/li]
                          [li]So it seems that roughly "my generation" took the biggest hit on divorce. So I'm even more lucky in that respect.[/li]
                          [li]Divorce rates in the US are declining, but so are marriage rates[/li]
                          [li]younger age predicts higher divorce rates[/li]
                          [li]so does lower education, independent of age[/li]
                          [li]Americans are more likely than ever to live together before getting married. In most cases these couples say they probably plan to get married but in fact only about one-quarter do[/li]
                          [li]couples that lived together before they get married are more likely to get divorced but since cohabitation seems to convince lots of people not to get married, it's plausible that the rising acceptance of cohabitation is lowering the divorce rate[/li]
                          [li]marriage rates are lower and cohabitation rates are higher in Western Europe, especially in Scandinavia, but living together isn't as frequently seen as a run-up to marriage there.[/li]
                          [li]and, most importantly, kids are more likely to live with both their biological parents in Western Europe than here.[/li]
                          [li]I don't think I'll get married or have kids, but I'm glad other people do. Free booze.[/li]
                          [/ul][/ul]

                          Comment


                            #38
                            Mad Men Season 4 - Spoilers Everywhere

                            I so love this programme. It's not like Dr Who where you love it but with a slight sense of foreboding because you don't know how good it's actually going to be from week to week, you can love this unconditionally knowing it's going to deliver every time. Two cracking episodes already, the first was mostly scene-setting and lining up some potentially interesting storylines - but with several great one-liners. This week we had the welcome return of some old characters and then straight into the meat of it. Poor Allison, she might have been a silly sausage to expect anything else but that didn't make Don's behaviour any more excusable. I'm guessing Joey won't react too well if he finds out about it. (And yes, she was on the show last season, in fact she's been kicking around in a minor role since the first year though she only becamse Don's secretary last year.)

                            The lad who plays Glenn is Matt Weiner's son, apparently. And Freddy is played by Bill Murray's brother.

                            Cavalry Trouser Tips wrote:
                            I quite like Don's potential new love interest. She seems like she'd be quite good for him - telling him to bog off when he was trying to weasel up to her flat on the first date.
                            No no, she's another Betty. She got him by playing hard to get too. He'd be much better off with Rachel or Suzanne who at least understood him a bit.

                            linus wrote:
                            While some of the minor characters in the series were likable (like Trudy, the teacher and Rachel), none of the major ones were, their flaws were clearly portrayed.
                            Does having their flaws so ruthlessly exposed make them unlikeable? I don't really see that. No one in Mad Men is entirely good or entirely bad but pretty much all of them you can be sympathetic to on some level, and mostly they're people who'd be pleasant and easy enough to get on with on a personal level. Don can be a cunt, certainly, not least this week, but he also has his own moral code and in many circumstances a knack for doing the right thing by people.

                            On the subject of US attitudes to divorce in the 60s, I was interested by this comment from Weiner in an interview last week:
                            "that power struggle between the two of them and how that relationship works with a divorced man in this period, at this age - I honestly couldn't find stories about it, anywhere. I couldn't find movies, I couldn't find anything."

                            http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/whats-alan-watching/posts/interview-mad-men-creator-matthew-weiner-talks-season-four

                            Comment


                              #39
                              Mad Men Season 4 - Spoilers Everywhere

                              No no, she's another Betty. She got him by playing hard to get too. He'd be much better off with Rachel or Suzanne who at least understood him a bit.

                              The "New Love Interest" is destined to be either the nurse down the hall, or, more likely, the market research maven, no? Or possibly both. Actually this is getting a teensie bit predictable. Episode 1–2 of each series has introduced a NLI. Even if said interest isn't consummated until later — like last year — you can count on her being gone by season's end. It's getting a bit rote Matt.

                              Comment


                                #40
                                Mad Men Season 4 - Spoilers Everywhere

                                Within the episode both of them turned out to be red herrings though. You're probably right that we'll see more of them during the series but thus far neither of them showed the slightest interest in biting. He's in danger of losing his touch.

                                Comment


                                  #41
                                  Mad Men Season 4 - Spoilers Everywhere

                                  The nurse down the hall is played by the girl who was on The OC and in some other films, so she's famous and will therefore feature in future stories. She's not just a red herring.

                                  I pretty much assume that Don Draper is going to fuck or consider fucking every female character that comes into frame at some point or other.

                                  Comment


                                    #42
                                    Mad Men Season 4 - Spoilers Everywhere

                                    He doesn't usually shit where he eats though. That's a first, as far as I can think.

                                    Comment


                                      #43
                                      Mad Men Season 4 - Spoilers Everywhere

                                      Thanks for that interview link. Very insightful.

                                      Who are you referring to in the shits-where-he-eats comment? Allison the secretary or hot-nurse played by Rachel Bilson?

                                      Comment


                                        #44
                                        Mad Men Season 4 - Spoilers Everywhere

                                        Allison.

                                        He hasn't had a fling (that we've seen) with anyone from work or shown any inclination to do so before now. Unless I've forgotten something.

                                        Comment


                                          #45
                                          Mad Men Season 4 - Spoilers Everywhere

                                          That's right. He goes for one-night stands with ships that pass in the night, or intense relationships with women who are smarter and more interesting than he is, in the hope they'll understand him and redeem his sorry ass. They either don't — or won't — and couldn't in any case.

                                          He doesn't usually shit where he eats though. That's a first, as far as I can think.

                                          That's almost true, he's stayed away from women at the agency, but clients (eg: Rachel) are fair game and so, I imagine, would be contractors — the researcher lady is hot for him it's pretty clear.

                                          Comment


                                            #46
                                            Mad Men Season 4 - Spoilers Everywhere

                                            Just catching up with this now (been out of TV range at the cottage for 2 weeks). My God, Don's become pathetic. This makes no sense to me...was that much of his identity wrapped up in being married to his Stepford wife?

                                            Where is this apartment Don is staying, exactly? It seems way too cheap for him.

                                            Comment


                                              #47
                                              Mad Men Season 4 - Spoilers Everywhere

                                              That was one of the other major inconsistencies in the show. Don was supposed to have landed a half million 1960s dollars with the firm getting bought, so he's filthy rich at this point (even after taxes). Even if he were frugal, he'd have much better digs. Probably something fairly comfortable a few blocks from work. That appartment was barely worth $10k. Manhattan real estate wasn't that expensive back then.

                                              Yoss, Betty lost me when she threw her daughter into the closet. She's just too heartless a mother, and that's a cardinal sin for someone who didn't have very heavy family baggage (unlike say, Don).

                                              Amor de Cosmos wrote:
                                              I don't think the amount of the bonus was really the issue.

                                              In 1960 Paul Goodman's Growing up Absurd was published. It was one of those books that you look back on now and think "yeah, he got it pretty much spot on." In it Goodman argued that Organization Men, like Don Draper, the Beats and so-called "Juvenile Delinquents" of the 50s were just differing responses to affluence without purpose or meaning. He also predicted they were only the forerunners of what was likely to be coming.

                                              It's 1964, turning '65 and — in my memory — that's when things started to get weird, which they do when you're sixteen but it wasn't just that. The first serious race riots happened in late summer 64, as did the Gulf of Tonkin incident. LBJ's inaugaration in January. Then Bringing It All Back Home and The Byrds, everything just kept getting stranger. More real yet somehow less believable. And Grant, the kid down the road, is the heir apparent to all that. He represents Goodman's absurd tomorrow. One way or another Don, Roger and the rest are moving out, they just don't know it yet. This series — and the next two or three — will show us how they handle it.
                                              It will be interesting to see how the changes will be played out in the series over the next few seasons, given the scale and pace of the dramatic social changes that happened in the mid-60s.

                                              Comment


                                                #48
                                                Mad Men Season 4 - Spoilers Everywhere

                                                My God, Don's become pathetic. This makes no sense to me...was that much of his identity wrapped up in being married to his Stepford wife?
                                                No, it wasn't about status. My reading is that Betty, kids & home were the anchor in his life. He's now, to take the maritime metaphor further, adrift at sea.

                                                linus, Betty might have shoved the girl in the closet, but never closed the door on her. She showed heart right there. And clearly she had plenty of heart before. Shooting the pigeons was a pivotal moment: a brutal act rooted in protective love. Betty most certainly isn't heartless or lacking in emotions.

                                                Alison's reaction to the bonus had nothing to do with being made to geel like a whore (as Reed says, she knew she'd get the bonus). My understanding was that it — and the card — now meant nothing to her because of the way Don treated her (and what a painful scene to watch that was).

                                                Comment


                                                  #49
                                                  Mad Men Season 4 - Spoilers Everywhere

                                                  I disagree (and more importantly so does her indoors.) Don might as well have left the money on the dresser, it sent the same message. The fact that Allison knew it was coming only made the association more hurtful — What was she being paid for in the end, her work or her body?

                                                  I agree Betty's no Stepford Wife, she's far more complex than that. But she's wound very tight and I've expected her to blow big-time since series one. She hasn't though, there have only been those relatively minor incidents. Now she has Don to hate which provides a safety valve but, most probably, will sorely damage her relationship with her daughter.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #50
                                                    Mad Men Season 4 - Spoilers Everywhere

                                                    The most intriguing scenes for me from this week's show were those between Peggy and Freddy. At first they seemed kind of pointless. After all we've known Freddy was yesterday's man since series one, to underline it so heavily now appeared redundant, and Mad Men has never been that. Then I realised, in spite of the fact that they "do things differently" it's not just Freddy that's out of date, it's the entire agency top to bottom, from Bertram to Pete.

                                                    I watched the remastered TAMI Show recently, made in 1964, the same year as this season's Mad Men begins. If you look at the white acts, the scruffy/mod Stones or the SoCal casual of Jan and Dean they're eons away from anyone at the agency, more pertinently so is the audience. Teenage girls in their wannabe Mary Quant outfits and short hair with flip-ups at the front. Then, at the other extreme, there's Lesley Gore looking exactly like Lady Bird Johnson...and Peggy Olsen. They're all old at SCDB, even the young ones. Roger is in his late 40s and doesn't understand his wife's interior design. Don in his 30s but might as well be 50. Joan, still channeling Rita Hayworth and Gina Lollobrigida, when other women are looking at Jean Shrimpton. My God Twiggy will be arriving in a year what will she do then! What will all of them do?

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