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    #51
    Liberté, égalité, fraternité

    Bored, that smock you mention, was called a "tablard" I think. It was purely for practical reasons, at the time writing was a messy business with ink going all over the place.

    Excellent post by WE. It made me think as to why uniform where not introduced in French school, it is after all a country where the military had a lot of prestige as well and "esprit de corps" is a notion familiar to the French as well

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      #52
      Liberté, égalité, fraternité

      I didn't mention a smock.

      You've been hoist by your own tablard there

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        #53
        Liberté, égalité, fraternité

        Bored of Education wrote:
        tablard
        Que?

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          #54
          Liberté, égalité, fraternité

          Tabard, yes?

          Here school uniforms are way of telling the world you can afford to send your kid to a private school, nothing more as far as I can tell.

          I can see that one day I'll have to get into a meaty discussion about Ivan Illich with WoE. Sadly this isn't the day as I've a bus to catch then eight hours worth of classes.

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            #55
            Liberté, égalité, fraternité

            I done an essay on him in 1985, for my teaching certificate. So I'm warning you, I'm an expert.

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              #56
              Liberté, égalité, fraternité

              Amor de Cosmos wrote:
              Here school uniforms are way of telling the world you can afford to send your kid to a private school, nothing more as far as I can tell.
              Here, a couple of schools in 'challenging' communities have rebranded as academies, with uniforms and all. The Toronto Separate (Catholic) School Board is big on them, too.

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                #57
                Liberté, égalité, fraternité

                I can see that one day I'll have to get into a meaty discussion about Ivan Illich with WoE.
                Book me in for that one. I'll get the first round in

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                  #58
                  Liberté, égalité, fraternité

                  Good thing I Googled Ivan Illich before I made a crap Tolstoy gag. I too would be interested to learn more.

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                    #59
                    Liberté, égalité, fraternité

                    I'm glad I wasn't the only one who was wondering about how Tolstoy fitted in with this, and what his position on education was.

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                      #60
                      Liberté, égalité, fraternité

                      My experience of uniforms, and school dress codes in general, was a profoundly alienating one.

                      Before Chris J jumps down my throat, that doesn't mean I think all teachers are fascists. I live with one.

                      Though I did have some that I seriously wondered about.

                      e.g.: in the 1970s, when I were a lad, everyone had long hair, especially the boys. Particular teachers (especially PE teachers who'd been marines and didn't want you to forget it) would grab your hair at the back of your neck and lift you up by it, muttering about how you looked like a girl and should get yer 'air cut. Some boys were actually suspended from school until they got a haircut.

                      Then, about 1977, a significant minority of us cut most of it off. I was then told on a no. of occasions that my hair was now 'too short' and vividly remember having my hair forcibly combed for the school photo in 78, which was done very roughly and aggressively. Tho' it wasn't as sore as the lifting up by the hairs on the back of the neck.

                      Similar contradictory flip-flopping of what was allowed/forbidden happened with how fat the knot on your tie was (up to late 70s: 'too fat, boy: sort it out!'/'77 onwards: 'too small boy, sort it out!')

                      This certainly bears out the comment above (by BoE) about 'how to bend not break the rules' but also that these were used by the schools as parts of a system of social control. I haven't even mentioned the school I went to in Elgin in the early 70s where the belt was thrashed out thoughtlessly to anyone not wearing the uniform properly.

                      And I should point out that I was always 'good at school' and still got these arbitrary physical punishments.

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                        #61
                        Liberté, égalité, fraternité

                        Can I just apologise for my part in kicking off? Mutual button-pressing, I'm afraid.

                        For my own sake, I'll try to explain myself better later this evening.

                        Cheers.

                        Comment


                          #62
                          Liberté, égalité, fraternité

                          TonTon - Thanks, that's decent of you, me too. Sorry I went OTT. My daughter's just about to fly back to NZ, so you may have been getting some emotional collateral there.

                          BoE - believe it or not, we have school hoodies. Our uniform is pretty practical.
                          I currently teach a Y2 class, but I've taught all primary and some pre-school.

                          That is probably a good compromise for Britain. I would make the Foundation Stage much more based on oral skills than starting literacy and numeracy. Although literacy is the gateway to education, oracy is the gateway to literacy.
                          Amen.

                          Felicity - what happened at your school was bullying, all too common in those days. Inexcusable. My wife tells me when she started school in St Helens, on her first day an older boy was selected at random and slippered 'As a warning' to the new 4-year-olds as to what would would happen to anyone who misbehaved.

                          My old grammar school was supposed to be the elite (state) establishment of the town; it would have been closed by by today's standards. I was good at school until I realised there was no point in getting my head kicked in for being a nerd if I wasn't getting any worthwhile teaching, so I 'changed sides' and ended up being expelled for a demo on a school roof.

                          There may be an element of cross-purposes here as most of you, I suspect have been talking about secondary - though my points still stand.

                          WOM - Montessori schools are the real fascists. All that colour grading.

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                            #63
                            Liberté, égalité, fraternité

                            TonTon wrote:
                            For my own sake, I'll try to explain myself better later this evening.

                            Comment


                              #64
                              Liberté, égalité, fraternité

                              You funny!

                              Comment


                                #65
                                Liberté, égalité, fraternité

                                Briefly, as Jimmy has made my brain very tired, and my bath is getting cold:

                                Teachers aren't the enemy, of course. Education is not simply a question of control, or of churning out factory fodder, or however some may like to put it.

                                It isn't true, either, that education as practised is an uncomplicated good, nor is it true that teachers play no role in enforcing conformity.

                                I find pro-uniform arguments of the "it's an equaliser" type to be entirely unserious. The other arguments in favour of uniforms seem to be built around the idea that they can help to get kids to do what the education system wants them to do. Again, I don't find that to be an uncomplicated good.

                                If I need to say that I find the teachers I know - friends, family, comrades - to be, almost to a person, very hard-working and clearly very concerned with the welfare of the kids they teach, then let it hereby be said.

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                                  #66
                                  Liberté, égalité, fraternité

                                  I believe this is what they do in Australia [/research from "Neighbours]

                                  I suspect the kids in Neighbours all go the same school. There is no national uniform.

                                  Uniform does tend to be very simple though with only the colours differing - polo shorts and shorts/skirts, with sweatshirts and track pants for the wusses in winter.

                                  I am afraid my argument does not stretch to theories of the enforcing of conformity Simple uniform is just bloody convenient if your are idle parents like us.

                                  Comment


                                    #67
                                    Liberté, égalité, fraternité

                                    TonTon wrote:

                                    I find pro-uniform arguments of the "it's an equaliser" type to be entirely unserious.
                                    That isn't an argument.

                                    The other arguments in favour of uniforms seem to be built around the idea that they can help to get kids to do what the education system wants them to do. Again, I don't find that to be an uncomplicated good.
                                    Not only isn't that an argument, it isn't even necessarily a criticism. Nor have you even attempted a positive anti-uniform case.

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                                      #68
                                      Liberté, égalité, fraternité

                                      I don't think the uniform-as-equalizer is unserious. Fashion is a way that children try to exclude one another, and it's certainly a way that wealthier children mark themselves out on the playground. Trying to limit that dynamic is a good impulse, I think.

                                      The problem is that it's unfortunately futile. Even with uniforms, kids find a way through accessories, or rolling up sleeves, collars, etc. to find ways to signify in-groups (and by extension out-groups). At best what it ends up doing is limiting amount that parents have to pay for their kids to signify their in-groupness.

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                                        #69
                                        Liberté, égalité, fraternité

                                        Parents can limit the amount that they pay by saying no.

                                        Doing so, while at the same time explaining your reasoning, is also a sound start to encouraging kids to be leaders rather than followers who bow to peer pressure.

                                        Comment


                                          #70
                                          Liberté, égalité, fraternité

                                          Why on Earth... wrote:
                                          I done an essay on him in 1985, for my teaching certificate. So I'm warning you, I'm an expert.
                                          Heh. You're one up on me then, though I do quote him a fair amount I suppose.

                                          But an Illichian approach to education, whatever its strengths, would without any doubt at all perform worse on many things that society values, such as rates of literacy.

                                          I guess the above piqued my curiosity. I wasn't aware that Illich — unlike his prophet William Morris — explicitly discouraged literacy in children. But you're saying that his ideas, if implemented, would cause an actual decrease in literacy? Or only the rates that measure it?

                                          Comment


                                            #71
                                            Liberté, égalité, fraternité

                                            Uncle Ethan wrote:
                                            Parents can limit the amount that they pay by saying no.

                                            Doing so, while at the same time explaining your reasoning, is also a sound start to encouraging kids to be leaders rather than followers who bow to peer pressure.
                                            Sure. But remarkably few do. Having the school say no for you is much easier.

                                            Comment


                                              #72
                                              Liberté, égalité, fraternité

                                              Didn't we have the school uniform debate on another thread? As I recall, I won that debate convincingly. In fact I recall all of OTF cheering and carrying me out of the arena on their shoulders like in Chariots of Fire. Dont you remember?

                                              I concede, however that in rough schools, uniforms can be a plus because they help to make the school a world a part from the problems outside the school fence. In that case then, students should all wear classic Adidas track suits, trainers and t-shirts in the school colors. That would look boss. Like a Kung Fu film. Indeed students in schools like that should all train like the shaolin.

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                                                #73
                                                Liberté, égalité, fraternité

                                                "Sure. But remarkably few do. Having the school say no for you is much easier."

                                                And the more schools take over parenting, the more parents there are who take advantage of that and opt out of their own responsibilities.

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                                                  #74
                                                  Liberté, égalité, fraternité

                                                  Sorry AG - I find the argument betrays a lack of seriousness because, as you point out, it clearly doesn't have that effect.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #75
                                                    Liberté, égalité, fraternité

                                                    Oh, I see.

                                                    Can't one be serious but wrong?

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