Red-faced over blackface

[wingco]

Red-faced over blackface

Yes.

[wingco]

Red-faced over blackface

(edit - to Max)

[hobbes]

Red-faced over blackface

What Wingco said. And it's depressing how often it has to be repeated, even on an as ostensibly thoughtful and progressive board as this.

[evilC]

Red-faced over blackface

Max Payne wrote:

...when 20 years ago they did the same skit and won the show does represent some sort of progress. But is it the right kind?

Yes, it is. Because 20/30 years ago, there almost certainly weren't any mainstream entertainers who would have even had the balls to speak out on air in the way that Harry Connick did. They would have just sat there, smiling inanely and maybe just commented on the incident in their memoirs when they reached retirement age.

[Max Payne]

Red-faced over blackface

evilC wrote:

You have to understand, Max, that in context your comments have basically come across as "Won't somebody pleeeease think of the racists?!!".

Yeah, I know that now. Still It's like Vegemite, I like a little bit of thread Vietnam on my toast of a morning.

And to clarify. It wasn't my intention to say "Won't somebody pleeeease think of the racists?!!", it was just my attempt to get a bit of discussion going as to what keeps eating Australia, amongst many places, up.

And also to admit that I'm nowhere near perfect myself. Some prejudices can be so instinctive you don't know they exist. It doesn't mean I don't want to understand what just happened when some attention seeking idiots got the very attention they wanted for acting like, well I'm sure BOE would agree here, Cunts.

[Guest]

Red-faced over blackface

Max Payne wrote:

I just used that lightly to suggest we are all capable of intolerance and of being not tolerated, even on as joshing, as SR put it.

There's two bloody obvious problems with this idea of "intolerance" that you're using here.
One is what SR has already very clearly pointed out; that power relations are not an issue in the British/Australian relationship in the same way as they are in the British/Subcontinental Asian relationship, and that no-one every battered a British storekeeper to death with a rock for being a "limey"

The other is that it's perfectly reasonable to not tolerate what people do, so the cyclists thing is irrelevant. I don't tolerate people in my company using racist language, for example. However, it's clearly not reasonable to not tolerate people for what they are and cannot choose not to be if that thing has no negative impact on you.

You're setting up a false equvialance to justify your own prejudices, and then indulging in a spot of "PCGM, Liberal Brainwashing" ranting when pulled up on it.

[Wyatt Earp]

Red-faced over blackface

Harry Connick was, actually, bloody brilliant, wasn't he? Kept his head, kept his temper, made the point clearly about why comedy blackface acts are a problem, and stayed gracious till the end of the show.

[evilC]

Red-faced over blackface

Why on Earth... wrote:

Harry Connick was, actually, bloody brilliant, wasn't he? Kept his head, kept his temper, made the point clearly about why comedy blackface acts are a problem, and stayed gracious till the end of the show.

Yep.

Gone up in my estimation, he has.

[tracteurgarcon]

Red-faced over blackface

To quote a very funny Kiwi comedian called Sully O'Sullivan "there's nothing inherently wrong with the word 'Paki', it's just that you people keep putting the word 'fucking' in front of it".

"Paki" is used in the Antipodes purely as a contraction of the word "Pakistani" but I agree in this country, the UK, it's become an offensive word mainly for the reason Sully so eloquently mentions.

[tracteurgarcon]

Red-faced over blackface

Sorry I've just reread the thread properly and realised that Wingco had already covered my point in much more eloquent fashion, apologies.

[Heliotrope]

Red-faced over blackface

I was Googling around for articles about this, and one led to this discussion forum. The rationalizations there are astonishing.

[hobbes]

Red-faced over blackface

They usually are.

[Bored Of Education]

Red-faced over blackface

The fact that some such as BOE were so willing to just leap in and have a go at me straight off the bat is evidence of the dogmatic thinking that keeps the whole thing going in circles.

If you are going to leap in and say such crass, ill-thought out (if at all) lazy bullshit then you can't expect anyone else to have to have perfect standards.

You had given me the bare minimum to work with and I challenged it.

You haven't even begun to successfully defend your statements yet. The cyclist remarks are a red herring especially when the original remark offends almost as much if you take this Magda person away from it. Equally, the "It's an Australia thing, you wouldn't understand" approach with all its "I get called a Pom" bleatings are laughable.

Other than that, I will let wingco, SR and Wyatt explain why it is wrong as they are far more eloquent and literate than I and, for some reason, people still seem to see swearing as a weakness in an anti-racist argument, which I have never understood.

As it happens, I have issues with quotas and "positive discrimination" where they happen - partly as they can be picked up by the PCGM brigade as an easy stick to beat good initiatives with - but I don't know whether I want to enter into that debate with you presently

[Max Payne]

Red-faced over blackface

Jesus Harry Connick Jnr Christ, BOE. You'd think I was a member of the National Front the way you're carrying on here. OK I'm a Cunt. I'm a horrible person. Will you stop discriminating against me?

Read my comments. Tell me where I'm being horrible. I am simply advocating more thought into what has led to all this furore over the Blacking up skit, which I think was 100% wrong, I am saying that this culture of offence and apologies that is doing the rounds is not an answer or healthy. We shouldn't be castigating these idiots anymore, it's a waste of energy. We should have moved on to pity by now.

OK, My comments about Magda were wrong. Have a fucking party. I see that now. I just don't like her. You don't like me. I'm broken. Fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiix me.

[Max Payne]

Red-faced over blackface

And before Wingo, SR, Wyatt or anyone else decides to weigh in:

I know all people are equal regardless of skin colour, ethnicity or belief? Check

I'm very sorry about the Magda remarks I see they were wrong. Check

I was wrong and all you guys are right. Check

And there was me under the impression these were discussion boards.

[Guest]

Red-faced over blackface

wingco wrote:

The word "Paki" in itself is an abbreviation for "Pakistani" on the face of it. The word isn't loathsome because it's loathsome to abbreviate words but because of its vicious historical connotations, the fact that it has been frequently preceded by the word "fucking" and followed by acts of physical assault, firebombing, etc, or at best used as a derogatory term for Asian immigrants of all descriptions (including Sikh).

It has got to the stage, certainly with people I've mixed with of that heritage (mainly Bengalis, with some Paks) where the word 'Paki' is now used, like a sizable minority of the young black community use the 'N'-word as an odd way of expressing solidarity.

In a South Asian context, it's slightly more affectionate than aggressive though.
Slightly perturbed by this however, on asking why this word is used by that community, it was mentioned about a way of 'fitting in' by using common description.
Which seems a somewhat warped way of expressing doubts about identity, albeit in a relatively alien culture.

Though to be fair it's not that different from how the Irish Diaspora will often describe themselves....

[Max Payne]

Red-faced over blackface

Munchkin wrote:

wingco wrote:

The word "Paki" in itself is an abbreviation for "Pakistani" on the face of it. The word isn't loathsome because it's loathsome to abbreviate words but because of its vicious historical connotations, the fact that it has been frequently preceded by the word "fucking" and followed by acts of physical assault, firebombing, etc, or at best used as a derogatory term for Asian immigrants of all descriptions (including Sikh).

It has got to the stage, certainly with people I've mixed with of that heritage (mainly Bengalis, with some Paks) where the word 'Paki' is now used, like a sizable minority of the young black community use the 'N'-word as an odd way of expressing solidarity.

In a South Asian context, it's slightly more affectionate than aggressive though.
Slightly perturbed by this however, on asking why this word is used by that community, it was mentioned about a way of 'fitting in' by using common description.
Which seems a somewhat warped way of expressing doubts about identity, albeit in a relatively alien culture.

Though to be fair it's not that different from how the Irish Diaspora will often describe themselves....

The P-word is a live hand grenade, Munchkin. I'm not sure it can be claimed, reclaimed or used affectionately because of the history and the intent behind it.

EdiT : The Asian one I mean , not the Irish 5 letter one.

[Guest]

Red-faced over blackface

Without picking an argument, I think words (derogatory ones) can be re-interpreted, if they come from within that culture.
Albeit here by Bengalis( ex-East Pakistan) rather than the more commonly known Pakistanis, from modern-day Pakistan to the west of India.

[Max Payne]

Red-faced over blackface

Munchkin wrote:

Without picking an argument, I think words (derogatory ones) can be re-interpreted, if they come from within that culture.
Albeit here by Bengalis( ex-East Pakistan) rather than the more commonly known Pakistanis, from modern-day Pakistan to the west of India.

I won't argue that. It's just that were a White, Anglo Saxon Trash such as myself to use that word, there would be little need to interpret the meaning that others would take from it, because of the history. And so long as the word is in the vocabulary, there'll be some White Trash that choose to do exactly that.

[jason voorhees]

Red-faced over blackface

Connick's dad was district attorney of New Orleans, so he does have some genetics when it comes to arguing cases.

If there was anyone who was able to make the points, it was someone who grew up in a city where racial polarization goes so far in each direction that they end up crossing at points.

I for one am flabbergasted that blackface is still in (I mean, since swing dancing, quilting, and roller derby came back, we have to have minstrel shows ?

I mean blackface ? Lawn jockeys ? Natives with plates in their lips cooking white caravaners on a safari ? Congressmen shouting "you lie!" at the President ?

White People Of The World. The Most Powerful Country On Earth Elected A Black Man. It's Okay. He Still Needs A Lot Of Help From White People.

[Guest]

Red-faced over blackface

To be fair to Obama, he's black & white as in half-and-half. Like an ever increasing number of mixed race people.
More power to them I say!

Anyway, for him to ultimately get on in the context of changing America, doubtless he'll have to be seen as acting like a pure white man, by certain types of white folk.
And to achieve this, on their terms, at the expense of any 'black agenda'. More's the pity.

[Max Payne]

Red-faced over blackface

I's be interested to know what high profile people of other race backgrounds make of the issue.

Harry Connick Jnr is outraged. A fair reaction. That's where we're at on this forum too, mostly.

I just have a feeling that people of other racial origins might have left us behind and moved straight onto pity. Pity these idiots, for they are cavemen, and move on without giving them the oxygen of so much publicity.

[Rory Bunk]

Red-faced over blackface

Max Payne wrote:

I's be interested to know what high profile people of other race backgrounds make of the issue.

Well, Kamahl is pissed off.

[Ray de Galles]

Red-faced over blackface

Max Payne wrote:

I just have a feeling that people of other racial origins might have left us behind and moved straight onto pity. Pity these idiots, for they are cavemen, and move on without giving them the oxygen of so much publicity.

You get this "feeling" because...?

[Ray de Galles]

Red-faced over blackface