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    #26
    Red-faced over blackface

    Why on Earth... wrote:
    Max Payne wrote:
    ... the current discussion on race is one sided, unfair and inflammatory...
    I'm afraid I for one am not with you yet. Can you enlarge on the above?
    Gladly. I am tired of this idea that racism is a white thing. Abusing others because of a trait, skin colour, hair colour, funny ears, religion, so on, is universal. As I get older it's not a skin colour, or whether someone observes Ramadan, Christmas or just sits on their hands all year that bothers me. It never was. It's the implication that I am, by association, by my white skin, part of the problem. That's what gets my goat. And so far two of you on this thread have picked up on it. What is that? Conditioning?

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      #27
      Red-faced over blackface

      Max Payne wrote:
      And so far two of you on this thread have picked up on it. What is that? Conditioning?
      I'm glad you noticed; it's what keeps my hair so lustrous and young-looking.

      (Seriously: you think anyone who disagrees with you on this must have been "conditioned"? Fuck's sake.)

      And I would say you were part of the problem, yeah.

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        #28
        Red-faced over blackface

        I am tired of this idea that racism is a white thing.
        Oh man, the old 'non-whites can be racist too, you know!'.

        It's the implication that I am, by association, by my white skin, part of the problem.
        Yeah, because when people get angry about racist attitudes and behaviour, they're really only interested in having a go at you. This kind of thinking doesn't in any way make you sound laughably self-pitying and paranoid.

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          #29
          Red-faced over blackface

          Firstly, being called a cunt in no way equates/is equivalent/whatever to endorsing the concentration camps remark. I am willing to allow that this TV presenter didn't know she was Polish but it is still a fucking terrible thing to say. Also you did know the connotation so you do not have that excuse. This is all said excluding the fact that Australians put Aborigines in concentration camps which makes it more sensitive and was what I thought he original headline referred to.

          The "political correct" thing is just stupid and lazy but not the reason to call you a cunt.

          It is quite simple, if you don't want to be called a cunt, don't post like one or clarify where I have misinterpreted your remarks in which case a retraction will be swiftly forthcoming.

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            #30
            Red-faced over blackface

            It's the implication that I am, by association, by my white skin, part of the problem
            No, you are part of the problem because you repeat the "concentration camp" remark and you come up with lazy "political correctness" and "positive discrimination" bullshit

            The presenter's remarks are fuck all to do with the latter two and everything to do with racism, bigotry and ignorance

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              #31
              Red-faced over blackface

              A selection of quotes from the letters page of the Sun today, regarding the Strictly Come Dancing racism row:

              "I feel uneasy when folk condescendingly spring to the defence of people of other races, creeds or beliefs in the arrogant assumption that they cannot defend themselves. And it shouldn't always be assumed the word Paki is being used in a derogatory manner. If you ban a word just because it could be used an insulting way you'd have to ban many words in the dictionary"

              "We are far too politically correct in this country. Du Beke probably said paki as the first name that came to mind and is now mortified. If this is the worst name the young lady is called in her life she is going to be very lucky. I worked in a multicultural environment and the name calling there would make you blush but nobody ever claimed it was racism."

              "Life is such now that everyone abbreviates words and Paki is easier to say than Pakistani"

              "What's all the fuss about Anton Du Beke calling his dance partner a paki? If I want to complain about being called a Cockney because I am a Londoner, then where do I go? Let's hear no more of this racism rubbish."

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                #32
                Red-faced over blackface

                Bored of Education wrote:
                The presenter's remarks are fuck all to do with the latter two and everything to do with racism, bigotry and ignorance
                Given that DJ's reputation and previous form as a "Shock Jock", his remarks were to do with self publicity via living up to that title. Magda's no angel, but I guess so long as you pick a target nobody gives a shit about, you're OK.

                As for the 3 posters above, who cannot believe that I can't see the light and adapt to their way of thinking, shame on you, for castigating someone with different beliefs.

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                  #33
                  Red-faced over blackface

                  What was the point of that pebble?

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                    #34
                    Red-faced over blackface

                    pebblethefish wrote:
                    A selection of quotes from the letters page of the Sun today, regarding the Strictly Come Dancing racism row:

                    "I feel uneasy when folk condescendingly spring to the defence of people of other races, creeds or beliefs in the arrogant assumption that they cannot defend themselves. And it shouldn't always be assumed the word Paki is being used in a derogatory manner. If you ban a word just because it could be used an insulting way you'd have to ban many words in the dictionary"

                    "We are far too politically correct in this country. Du Beke probably said paki as the first name that came to mind and is now mortified. If this is the worst name the young lady is called in her life she is going to be very lucky. I worked in a multicultural environment and the name calling there would make you blush but nobody ever claimed it was racism."

                    "Life is such now that everyone abbreviates words and Paki is easier to say than Pakistani"

                    "What's all the fuss about Anton Du Beke calling his dance partner a paki? If I want to complain about being called a Cockney because I am a Londoner, then where do I go? Let's hear no more of this racism rubbish."
                    And I'm not condoning stuff like this, by the way. It's wrong wrong wrong. I can see that. I'm trying to put across a view which suggests the issue of race isn't so...er....black and white as certain types who are educated enough to know better suggest it is.

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                      #35
                      Red-faced over blackface

                      "What's all the fuss about Anton Du Beke calling his dance partner a paki? If I want to complain about being called a Cockney because I am a Londoner, then where do I go? Let's hear no more of this racism rubbish."
                      I call cockneys cock all the time. Eh?

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                        #36
                        Red-faced over blackface

                        Pointing out that there are a scary number of people who have attitudes like that and are happy to put their names to them in a national newspaper.

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                          #37
                          Red-faced over blackface

                          Nil Arshavin wrote:
                          What was the point of that pebble?
                          I'd imagine he's merely highlighting the ignorance of Sun readers. (EDIT: too slow on the draw again.)

                          The thing that struck me about that Australian clip is that the blokes in blackface are all doctors/surgeons, i.e. extremely high-earning, white-collar professionals.

                          UE, who's the cricketer on the radio?

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                            #38
                            Red-faced over blackface

                            Right, sorry, I wasn't sure that was the point you were making with them, that's all. Apologies for being uncharitable about your motives.

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                              #39
                              Red-faced over blackface

                              Max, the problem is that both of these incidents are black and white, and it's not oversensitive to say that the people involved are at best idiots and at worst bigoted fuckers. It's got nothing to do with this white persecution comlex you seem to be pushing.

                              Comment


                                #40
                                Red-faced over blackface

                                Max Payne wrote:
                                ... shame on you, for castigating someone with different beliefs.
                                Come on, I castigate someone with different beliefs several times a day. Always castigating 'em, I am.

                                Listen Max, I've not called you a cunt, have I? I've agreed that I think you're part of the problem, though, on the evidence of what you've said, and I'll happily defend that claim if you like.

                                I mean, I haven't pulled it out of my arse. I really do think, for thought-through reasons, that people with the views you've aired are part of the racism problem. Not as big a part of the problem as a neo-Nazi would be, but "part of the problem" nonetheless. This idea that racism is on a par with calling someone "baldy" is pernicious and damaging.

                                Comment


                                  #41
                                  Red-faced over blackface

                                  If this was a thread about a less serious issue I might call you baldy here.

                                  My dad used to not only confront people on the terraces at Tannadice who (on the odd occasion it happened) shouted racist insults, he also pulled up a guy who called a ref a baldy wanker once. That was pretty funny.

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                                    #42
                                    Red-faced over blackface

                                    Can we do 'political correctness'? What is that?

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                                      #43
                                      Red-faced over blackface

                                      Favourite phrase of right wing sports icon, electrical perhaps? (9,11,4,3)

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                                        #44
                                        Red-faced over blackface

                                        Workingstiff wrote:
                                        Max, the problem is that both of these incidents are black and white, and it's not oversensitive to say that the people involved are at best idiots and at worst bigoted fuckers. It's got nothing to do with this white persecution comlex you seem to be pushing.
                                        OK, Cards on table. Deep breath. One last time.

                                        I am not condoning the Black/White stunt, nor though am I condoning the hype it's getting. That coverage alone is proof that this type of thing hits a raw nerve again and again. And I am not condoning Concentration Camp remarks. They're wrong. But I find Magda's reaction and subsequent conduct less than fully sincere. I just do.

                                        The comments about cyclists just happen to very speedily show hypocrisy, of a type. That she is intolerant. We all are. Hell, some people can't tolerate me on this thread. Intolerance is a part of human nature. It's icky and bad but to try and deny it and bully people by implying that everything regards race is either correct of incorrect like 2+2=4 is naive.

                                        You guys are not examining the set of social conditions that have led to these outbursts. And to understand what is happening in Australia is part way to solving it. Hey, I'm a Pommie. I've been called that a few times. I could say that's a form of abuse if I got over analytical. But some guys on this thread shouting me down are analysing a little too much in the wrong places and all the time the whole victim > uprising > victim circle is going on (Cronulla riots, anyone?).

                                        The fact that some such as BOE were so willing to just leap in and have a go at me straight off the bat is evidence of the dogmatic thinking that keeps the whole thing going in circles. It's not lazy on my part, BOE , to think that quotas and positive discrimination is wrong. It's what I believe. I see that in a country like Australia it's caused a lot of anger. It's counter-productive. Long term, it shouldn't even be necessary. What's lazy is to stick to the majority accepted view that everything is all right if you hold the exact views you hold BOE. You're entitled to them, and I'm not even going to call you a name for it. But equally I am entitled to mine. I don't endorse bullying or discriminating against people of other skin colours or beliefs, but I do endorse more considered thought into the mechanisms of why exactly we keep going around in circles when it comes to race and that might involve confronting some ugly truths maybe even inside oneself.

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                                          #45
                                          Red-faced over blackface

                                          Brucie weighs in.

                                          Yeah it's about the other one. Sorry.

                                          Political correctness was invented by Bernard Manning as part of his 1982 "Fat Cunt" tour. It was the gimic that propelled him from imbecilic circuit comedian to counterculture darling overnight.

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                                            #46
                                            Red-faced over blackface

                                            Max, you speak as though power imbalances do not exist, and as though the world is a level playing field. If it were, then maybe everything would be comparable to a little light-hearted joshing about you being a "Pommie" for example. Until that day, you're living in a fantasy.

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                                              #47
                                              Red-faced over blackface

                                              Spearmint Rhino wrote:
                                              Max, you speak as though power imbalances do not exist, and as though the world is a level playing field. If it were, then maybe everything would be comparable to a little light-hearted joshing about you being a "Pommie" for example. Until that day, you're living in a fantasy.
                                              Well at least you didn't call me a Cunt. It's a start.

                                              Comment


                                                #48
                                                Red-faced over blackface

                                                What SR said. It's about power imbalances. The word "Paki" in itself is an abbreviation for "Pakistani" on the face of it. The word isn't loathsome because it's loathsome to abbreviate words but because of its vicious historical connotations, the fact that it has been frequently preceded by the word "fucking" and followed by acts of physical assault, firebombing, etc, or at best used as a derogatory term for Asian immigrants of all descriptions (including Sikh).

                                                "Pommie" and "Limey" might not always be meant affectionately but they do not carry with them an implicit legacy of violent and oppression against white English folks. How Bruce Forsyth has lived so long and not managed to shit out the cretin in him that doesn't grasp this, I've no idea.

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                                                  #49
                                                  Red-faced over blackface

                                                  wingco wrote:
                                                  "Pommie" and "Limey" might not always be meant affectionately but they do not carry with them an implicit legacy of violent and oppression against white English folks. How Bruce Forsyth has lived so long and not managed to shit out the cretin in him that doesn't grasp this, I've no idea.
                                                  I just used that lightly to suggest we are all capable of intolerance and of being not tolerated, even on as joshing, as SR put it.

                                                  The fact that some guys 'blacking up' and doing a skit on Michael Jackson (Race? Bad Taste of someone who died recently...take your pick) caused outrage when 20 years ago they did the same skit and won the show does represent some sort of progress. But is it the right kind?

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                                                    #50
                                                    Red-faced over blackface

                                                    You have to understand, Max, that in context your comments have basically come across as "Won't somebody pleeeease think of the racists?!!".

                                                    (edit: The original comments.)

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