Rowling thread

[Snake Plissken]

I'm not sure if or why you dislike thread shifts in general, Snake? Surely if posters don't overstep the mark and remain respectful..

I don't dislike them at all.

This particular thread had taken a left turn almost immediately, was clearly causing problems and making things uncomfortable and I'd already put a little mod note in which had no effect. It was ringing alarm bells and given the temperature of the board in general at the moment, it was - in my opinion and experience - one that was very likely to take a bad turn at some point on a subject that is very sensitive for some OTF members. Had to make a judgement and take the consequences. I'll be honest with you, I was damned if I do and damned if I don't. For some people it was the right thing to do, for others it wasn't.

I don't have the stats on closed threads, but FWIW, this is the fourth deleted thread in two years so if I'm going to be get my Supreme Dictatorial Overlord badges then I'm going to have to up my game.

[Antepli Ejderha]

I think you were right as to where it was heading.

[Sporting]

I don't dislike them at all.

This particular thread had taken a left turn almost immediately, was clearly causing problems and making things uncomfortable and I'd already put a little mod note in which had no effect. It was ringing alarm bells and given the temperature of the board in general at the moment, it was - in my opinion and experience - one that was very likely to take a bad turn at some point on a subject that is very sensitive for some OTF members. Had to make a judgement and take the consequences. I'll be honest with you, I was damned if I do and damned if I don't. For some people it was the right thing to do, for others it wasn't.

I don't have the stats on closed threads, but FWIW, this is the fourth deleted thread in two years so if I'm going to be get my Supreme Dictatorial Overlord badges then I'm going to have to up my game.

Fair and thorough answer. Thanks

[Stumpy Pepys]

I think you were right as to where it was heading.

Then I have to deeply thank you and the mods for stopping me writing potentially offensive bigotry. It's clear I can't stop myself, even when I hadn't started..

[Antepli Ejderha]

Grow up please with the passive aggressive nonsense.

Some of the things written by yourself on there were ignorant at best and offensive and bigoted at worst. As I've not got screenshots I cannot prove this.

Edit: I could not spell ignorant

[caja-dglh]

Rod Liddle always deserves threads and mentions until he comes back on here. Flouncing softie.

[Stumpy Pepys]

Grow up please with the passive aggressive nonsense.

Some of the things written by yourself on there were ignorany at best and offensive and bigoted at worst. As I've not got screenshots I cannot prove this.

I'm happy to be reprimanded if I'm guilty of causing offence or bigotry, if someone points out where I've crossed a line. What I'm not happy about is being penalised for holding opinions you simply don't like.

[Stumpy Pepys]

Rod Liddle always deserves threads and mentions until he comes back on here. Flouncing softie.

Rod Liddle's too dangerous to consume nowadays.

[WOM]

I'm happy to be reprimanded if I'm guilty of causing offence or bigotry, if someone points out where I've crossed a line.

Right...and I take you at your word that you believe this. But that's pretty much what everybody was attempting to do and it wasn't getting any traction at all with you.

For me - and I pointed this out to you - if you're adopting the position of a person trying to parse the conflicting views of 'gender theorists' instead of recognizing someone self-declared humanity, then you have crossed a line.

If someone says "yeah, I know I have the body of a man...but in my heart and soul I am a woman", don't scratch your beard and say "well, academics differ on this". Just don't. And that was gamely pointed out to you.

[ursus arctos]

https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1507332299007971328?s=20&t=6ofYbyDU8v4pVt5fxjhFkQ

[Antepli Ejderha]

I'm happy to be reprimanded if I'm guilty of causing offence or bigotry, if someone points out where I've crossed a line. What I'm not happy about is being penalised for holding opinions you simply don't like.

I think WOM has explained. Others also pointed it out to you at the time.

As for me, without seeing the thread in front of me I cannot point out exactly where you have crossed the line.

[Antepli Ejderha]

https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1507340668661809154?t=cCTtxbcprJNlhDSwjpXenQ&s=19

This

[Stumpy Pepys]

For me - and I pointed this out to you - if you're adopting the position of a person trying to parse the conflicting views of 'gender theorists' instead of recognizing someone self-declared humanity, then you have crossed a line.

The original point I made was that even questioning modern theories of gender was enough to earn you a label of 'transphobe bigot'. And indeed it is.

[caja-dglh]

I think everyone who is prepared to listen has heard your point.

[WOM]

The original point I made was that even questioning modern theories of gender was enough to earn you a label of 'transphobe bigot'. And indeed it is.

Yes, and you don't seem to grasp why.

[Hot Pepsi]

Right...and I take you at your word that you believe this. But that's pretty much what everybody was attempting to do and it wasn't getting any traction at all with you.

For me - and I pointed this out to you - if you're adopting the position of a person trying to parse the conflicting views of 'gender theorists' instead of recognizing someone self-declared humanity, then you have crossed a line.

If someone says "yeah, I know I have the body of a man...but in my heart and soul I am a woman", don't scratch your beard and say "well, academics differ on this". Just don't. And that was gamely pointed out to you.

If somebody said "In my heart and soul, I'm the King of France," few people would accept that as good reason to treat that person as the King of France, for better or worse.

Gender doesn't work like that, of course.

But a huge part of the planet's population believes it does and think transgender people are delusional or, perhaps, just show-offs trying to cheat their way into the olympics. Just calling those people bigots and doubling down on #transwomenarewomen doesn't really help, even if both of those statements are basically true.

Academics and activists should sort this theoretical stuff out to help therapists, teachers, parents, etc, understand why the simplistic ideas about gender and gender norms that they learned in the 50s and 60s were just untested assumptions, rather than the ironclad laws of the universe that we were led to believe. That's one important way - but not the only way - that progress happens.

My feeling is the academics have made a bit of a hash of this. Queer theory and gender theory is often absolutely impenetrable, such that I start to think it's all just so certain people who went to certain schools can show off for each other rather than help anybody else.

I don't believe challenging gender theory is inherently transphobic. Scientists can and do argue about why humans are the way they are without questioning their right to be that way.

[Bruno]

Happened on this thread while searching for something else.

For me - and I pointed this out to you - if you're adopting the position of a person trying to parse the conflicting views of 'gender theorists' instead of recognizing someone self-declared humanity, then you have crossed a line.

If someone says "yeah, I know I have the body of a man...but in my heart and soul I am a woman", don't scratch your beard and say "well, academics differ on this". Just don't. And that was gamely pointed out to you.

This captures as well as anything why I won't be a regular poster here anymore. He expressly asked where he'd crossed a line into bigotry, and you seem to be saying that talking about something that's on-topic and publicly debated, that he's curious and perhaps confused about, presumably in a fair and open-minded way, is bigoted because others insist on not being diverted according to a ground rule he didn't sign onto and wasn't required to. How is that remotely cool. I dunno, did he say actual bigoted things? If the diversion makes you feel victimized and unsafe, fine, but it doesn't make the other person a bigot, even after you splain it to them and they still disagree with your premise. I get that these things are socially negotiated, make whatever rules you want and shun whomever, set ground rules for threads by all means and pin them, but I detest the degree of puritanical shaming that goes on here. I once got suspended for telling someone to fuck off, but you can smear people as bigots for having a different idea of how convos are allowed to go. Fuck that.

[WOM]

Happened on this thread while searching for something else.



This captures as well as anything why I won't be a regular poster here anymore. He expressly asked where he'd crossed a line into bigotry, and you seem to be saying that talking about something that's on-topic and publicly debated, that he's curious and perhaps confused about, presumably in a fair and open-minded way, is bigoted because others insist on not being diverted according to a ground rule he didn't sign onto and wasn't required to. How is that remotely cool. I dunno, did he say actual bigoted things? If the diversion makes you feel victimized and unsafe, fine, but it doesn't make the other person a bigot, even after you splain it to them and they still disagree with your premise. I get that these things are socially negotiated, make whatever rules you want and shun whomever, set ground rules for threads by all means and pin them, but I detest the degree of puritanical shaming that goes on here. I once got suspended for telling someone to fuck off, but you can smear people as bigots for having a different idea of how convos are allowed to go. Fuck that.

Wait...so you're quoting a post from 18 months ago [not directed at you] as an example of why you won't be posting here as much? Fuck right off then.

[Johnny Velvet]

Happened on this thread while searching for something else.

What were you searching for?

[Bruno]

What were you searching for?

An old thread on Rod Liddle, ironically. No clue why you would ask or why it should matter, but I mentioned it by way of explaining why I was commenting on a dead thread. WOM, the age of the thread seems irrelevant to my point, and I've been subject as I'm sure you know to similar gaslighting accusations, so I felt what Stumpy was saying. It's a you problem anyway, not that you'll agree.

[Bruno]

Also please don't suspend WOM for telling me to fuck off, that would be annoyingly consistent.

[Johnny Velvet]

An old thread on Rod Liddle, ironically.

10/10, no notes

[WOM]

Also please don't suspend WOM for telling me to fuck off, that would be annoyingly consistent.

For the record, I'm sorry I told you fuck off. Not my finest moment.

[Bruno]

I'm not bothered by being told to fuck off, I'm bothered by what I spelled out and won't be engaged on. Refusing open discussions about confusing or controversial issues and calling people interested in those discussion bigots, the Jacobin reading of other people's minds, just makes it look like you aren't confident you have a winning hand and would prefer bullying and shaming and diversion, especially with a topic that gets people canceled. Like I said, you certainly don't have to have the discussion if you don't want to, but if you care about the cause you should ease up on the bigotry talk. There are now non-Ts within LGBTQ i.e. marginalized people who are hopping mad about this and that, and now they're being called bigots too. I got into this with dm about people I know who definitely aren't bigots who are dealing with confusion (and rightly so because they're being told confusing stuff) and was dismissed as a bigot defender. Fuck that all the way to fucktown, and good fucking luck with the cause if that's your game.

[WOM]

Yeah, I truthfully don't know what you're talking about at this point. I don't recall calling anyone a bigot, but I have absolutely no interest in re-litigating this topic at this point. It was 18 months ago, and it's not helped by the original thread, IIRC, being deleted. But anyway, the apology stands.