Rowling thread

[Snake Plissken]

OK, this was going to be a long-winded explanation but I've rewritten this five times already.

I try to act as an administrator of OTF and not a moderator. I firmly believe that it is the community who should set the rules and boundaries and try to police them. That is why I don't step into threads often, even if people want me to. (Also, I cannot read everything and absolutely do not.) Maybe I could have jumped into the Rowling thread earlier - in fact probably - but I slept on it.

I have no problem with discussing Rowling, her Tweets and all that - as someone in the public eye that is always going to be the case - but the discussion had veered well away from that.

For utmost openness - this is not about how individuals posted on OTF and is not aimed at any individual who posted in the thread but about setting a precedent going forward. I can only put my opinion as I see it and I need guidance.

I don't pretend to comprehend trans issues or even know how to get things right. But for clarity, my position on trans issues is this - and people are free to comment on this as a position of OTF as a whole.

OTF is a space for discussing issues and offering support to a community, not for hosting a discussion as to whether that community exists. I don't think there is any mileage in debating "gender theory", in the same way there is no mileage in debating "homosexual theory" or "Black theory" or "<insert minority here> theory". There certainly is no mileage in such a debate largely between people who are not members of that community and even more certainly when the wider debate outside of OTF is currently so polluted by bad actors as to be practically meaningless.

That is not to dismiss the valid issues and concerns about the treatment of the trans community (or any other) which I think should be pointed out and discussed in order to make us all better people. It's just that I really don't like it when a community of people are discussed in terms as if they were merely cells on a spreadsheet or put in simple statistical boxes to be analysed and measured.

Therefore, while I'm happy for any and all trans issues to be debated, any discussion on OTF that starts getting into that area is going to get looked at much more closely in future - and for that, I'm going to need help by flagging posts, PM etc. OTF is supposed to be a safe space for all, and I intend to keep it that way.

[DCI Harry Batt]

Just to check, has the thread been deleted?

[Antepli Ejderha]

Just to check, has the thread been deleted?

It has.

[Snake Plissken]

Technically it's in a backstage area. (I used to have that for anything deleted so that WSC could see, should they get complaints about it. Also, someone on another forum I used to run threatened to sue me for libel, until they realised that I had kept the evidence.)

I really ought to clear that out, I suppose.

[Uncle Ethan]

According to another thread, yes it was.

Nothing takes precedence over protecting people and I support that principle. I also support anyone willing to voluntarily do the work that been done to keep OTF going.

This is a community spread across many time zones. If threads disappear sections of the OTF community can make no judgment on them as they may not have seen them at all. The same applies when posters just vanish with no explanation and the relevant threads no longer exist.

Thread deletion should always be absolutely the option of last resort (and that seems to be the case). I can offer no easy solution to this dilemma though.

[Snake Plissken]

It's a question with no right answer - if a thread is upsetting people or even degenerating into a flame war, do you close it and leave it still for everyone to see or do you delete it? Case by case basis, I think. I didn't think there was any benefit in keeping it visible as it never really stayed too much on topic anyway.

[Antepli Ejderha]

Close the thread, archive it so that others can see and then delete if that's the consensus.

That's what I think.

[Snake Plissken]

Normally it leaves an expiring notification message in the original forum so I probably mis-clicked the option when I moved it. That's on me.

[DCI Harry Batt]

To be clear, I wasn't objecting, just wanted to be sure. Thanks.

[Gangster Octopus]

Did anyone else misread this thread's title as Rowing Thread...

[Uncle Ethan]

It's a question with no right answer - if a thread is upsetting people or even degenerating into a flame war, do you close it and leave it still for everyone to see or do you delete it? Case by case basis, I think. I didn't think there was any benefit in keeping it visible as it never really stayed too much on topic anyway.

That last sentence puts every OTF thread in danger. Tough decisions to have to make and all you can do is make the call you feel is right.

[Patrick Thistle]

Thanks, Snake. I only queried it because I was writing a post that then couldn't post because it had been deleted.

I 100% support your judgement call on this.

[caja-dglh]

Did anyone else misread this thread's title as Rowing Thread...

One hundred, and *then* considered doing the classic OTF "Rowing" parody thread. Decided that might not be an awesome idea as well.

[WOM]

It's a question with no right answer - if a thread is upsetting people or even degenerating into a flame war, do you close it and leave it still for everyone to see or do you delete it?

I am, and have always been, against deleting threads on principle.

If you don't like a thread, avoid it.
If you don't like a poster, ignore them...then IGNORE POSTER them.
If you get out of line, a caution.
If you get out of line again, a suspension.
If you keep getting out of line, a ban.
If a thread gets waaaaay out of line, a temporary lock.
If a thread keeps getting way out of line, a permanent lock.

But rarely, if ever, a deletion.

Why? Because we need to have these conversations. They're important and they're generally constructive and this has historically been a great place to have your stupid beliefs challenged and maybe even changed. But if we fear deletion because we're impassioned or talking about a delicate topic, then we'll stop having those conversations and we'll be poorer for it.

I've had my head turned around on more than one occasion thanks to OTF. And I've also received a PM from someone who said, many years ago, I turned their head around about something and they were grateful for it. So it cuts both ways; also good.

We talk about real things here, and we need to be able to continue doing so.

[Hot Pepsi]

Nobody that I could see was being insulting or challenging anyone's right to exist or be who they are.
It's an important topic and people outside the directly impacted community ought to be able ask questions about it, even challenging ones, in the spirit of greater understanding.

"Nothing takes precedence over protecting people and I support that principle."
Absolutely.

[Sporting]

Nobody that I could see was being insulting or challenging anyone's right to exist or be who they are

That was my take.

[Stumpy Pepys]

I don't think there is any mileage in debating "gender theory", in the same way there is no mileage in debating "homosexual theory" or "Black theory" or "<insert minority here> theory". There certainly is no mileage in such a debate largely between people who are not members of that community and even more certainly when the wider debate outside of OTF is currently so polluted by bad actors as to be practically meaningless.

Gender and Queer Theory are academic disciplines, whose ideas have permeated the mainstream and continue to influence academia, politics and public health.
That's somewhat akin to saying we can't debate solid-state physics or geology.

As to what "homosexual theory" is, I've no idea.

There was little in that thread that was offensive or ill-informed.

On all my time on OTF, this has to be the first time a topic has been censored. Maybe a sticky note is called for: "Don't debate trans issues (even sensibly), as it might offend. But we're happy for you to call someone a transphobic TERF cunt"?

[Antepli Ejderha]

Hmmm, Rowling at it again yesterday, I wish there was a thread to share it on. Winky thing

[Wouter D]

Hmmm, Rowling at it again yesterday, I wish there was a thread to share it on. Winky thing

Why though?

We can also choose not to give it any attention. We already know that this is a terrible person doing terrible things, so there is no more information to be gained by talking about it.

[Kevin S]

This is a fair point. We occasionally get threads that pop up, like "Katie Hopkins" or "Rod Liddle again" and pretty soon we can see what the score is, and then we don't need to see much more.

The moderately interesting one of those recently was about Jimmy Carr's racism towards the GRT community, because I wasn't aware of that side of him. So it was quite useful to know that I can file him away under c***s. Rowling's tweets are quite well known about now, I think, so adding more to the pile on here is just picking at scabs.

[Nocturnal Submission]

This is a fair point. We occasionally get threads that pop up, like "Katie Hopkins" or "Rod Liddle again" and pretty soon we can see what the score is, and then we don't need to see much more.

The moderately interesting one of those recently was about Jimmy Carr's racism towards the GRT community, because I wasn't aware of that side of him. So it was quite useful to know that I can file him away under c***s. Rowling's tweets are quite well known about now, I think, so adding more to the pile on here is just picking at scabs.

Yes, FWIW I absolutely loathe the Two Minutes Hate threads, when the latest statement or actions of someone who's views offend the bulk of OTF are posted merely to give people the chance to once again get wound up by them and get unpleasantly sweary or resort to violent language in response. They serve virtually no purpose whatsoever.

[delicatemoth]

We already know that this is a terrible person doing terrible things, so there is no more information to be gained by talking about it.

It's a perennial fear of mine that the trans issues thread will get bogged down with 'bigoted arsehole lashes out again' type posts over more substantive matters. But that's exactly why I was pleased to see Antepli had started a thread (not that I looked at it, I've heard more than enough from/about her!). She does merit attention and discussion more than the likes of Liddle, she's one of Britain's most famous people, a wildly successful author who appears to have become obsessed with baiting a minority to the point where she's dallying with properly fashy types. The forthcoming Hogwarts computer game sounds demented, go and read about it.

So I think it was good that there was a thread, and it's a shame that it couldn't continue. I'd like to add that I now feel the trans issues thread is a reasonably safe space for proper discussion, no-one shitposts or comes in with tendentious bad faith arguments. That's a credit to Snake and the board as a whole (and that includes the one poster who did come on being weird, cos he hasn't done it again and that's really all I can ask for, fair play). So in general I think the board is in a decent place.

[Snake Plissken]

Another place I'm at has a general "Celebrities Who Really Cannot Handle Social Media" type thread which acts as a dumping ground for the Linehan/Rowling/everyone else type discussion. Which I'm all for if it can stay vaguely on topic.

[Sporting]

I'm not sure if or why you dislike thread shifts in general, Snake? Surely if posters don't overstep the mark and remain respectful..

[Antepli Ejderha]

It's a perennial fear of mine that the trans issues thread will get bogged down with 'bigoted arsehole lashes out again' type posts over more substantive matters. But that's exactly why I was pleased to see Antepli had started a thread (not that I looked at it, I've heard more than enough from/about her!). She does merit attention and discussion more than the likes of Liddle, she's one of Britain's most famous people, a wildly successful author who appears to have become obsessed with baiting a minority to the point where she's dallying with properly fashy types. The forthcoming Hogwarts computer game sounds demented, go and read about it.

So I think it was good that there was a thread, and it's a shame that it couldn't continue. I'd like to add that I now feel the trans issues thread is a reasonably safe space for proper discussion, no-one shitposts or comes in with tendentious bad faith arguments. That's a credit to Snake and the board as a whole (and that includes the one poster who did come on being weird, cos he hasn't done it again and that's really all I can ask for, fair play). So in general I think the board is in a decent place.

This makes me happy that you feel safe on here.

The reason I started the thread was not because of her well known transphobia but because she's shifted towards attacking the rest of the LGBGTQ community. I used the term radicalised to describe her.