Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Moral Turpitude

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Moral Turpitude

    So, I was just reading a recent Independent On Sunday, in which I learned that the play Sex, for which its star Mae West was imprisoned on an obscenity charge in 1927, was described by Variety magazine as "a sink of moral turpitude".

    It's a phrase I've only ever seen in one other place: the visa waiver form you have to fill in on flights to the USA. It always used to baffle me. "Have you ever been convicted of a crime of moral turpitude?" Er, what? Turnips? Turps? Ermintrude? Huh?

    Has anyone come across this phrase, or even the word 'turpitude', in any other context? Without looking it up, can you offer a stab as to what it means?

    I mean, I guess it means "the sort of thing Mae West used to get up to". Maybe that'll do for a working definition...

    #2
    Moral Turpitude

    I believe my dad, as an Oxford academic with tenure, back in the days when such things as tenure existed, could only ever lose his job if he was guilty of gross moral turpitude.

    Comment


      #3
      Moral Turpitude

      Wow.

      Is Oxford University a hotbed of turpitude, then?

      Comment


        #4
        Moral Turpitude

        Is 'turpitude' the same as 'iniquity'?

        Comment


          #5
          Moral Turpitude

          Ah. Good question.

          Comment


            #6
            Moral Turpitude

            Maybe you can only have turpitude in sinks and iniquity in dens.

            Comment


              #7
              Moral Turpitude

              I don't think it is, otherwise the streets would have been awash with sacked academics.

              I think it basically boils down to murdering or shagging your students. Normal moral turpitude, like just sleeping around a bit, was frowned upon but didn't get you kicked out.

              Comment


                #8
                Moral Turpitude

                I've only ever seen it in a US legal context, where its use is not limited to immigration matters. I've also never seen the word "turpitude" without the "moral".

                Many moons ago, I had to research the question of whether bribery was considered a crime of moral turpitude and my recollection is that the answer was yes.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Moral Turpitude

                  Here is a report on a recent case in which the Ninth Circuit (one of the regional courts of appeal just below the US Supreme Court) struggled with the question of just what constituted "moral turpitude".

                  "Driving while intoxicated is despicable, and when coupled with the knowledge that one has been specifically forbidden to drive, it becomes 'an act of baseness, violence or depravity in the private and social duties which a person shows to a fellowman or to society in general, contrary to the accepted and customary rule of right and duty,'" Callahan wrote, referring to a U.S. Supreme Court definition of turpitude. She was joined by Senior Judge Cormac Carney of the Central District of California, who was sitting by designation.

                  Senior Judge Dorothy Nelson disagreed, with vehemence, going so far as to accuse her colleagues of sophistry. She said that despite the fact that the definition of turpitude is "nebulous," it's clear to her that driving drunk without a license doesn't qualify.

                  "It is well settled that driving while intoxicated is not a morally turpitudinous act," she wrote. "Nonetheless, the majority concludes that Campos's act of drunk driving was transformed into a turpitudinous offense because he was not legally licensed to drive."

                  Nelson pointed out that certain crimes -- such as fraud, murder and child abuse -- always entail turpitude. "On the other hand," she continued, "burglary, assault and battery, malicious mischief, alien smuggling, assault with a deadly weapon, indecency, rioting, and money laundering have all been found not to involve moral turpitude."

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Moral Turpitude

                    Hmm, interesting that such a nebulous term should be used on an immigration form. I mean, you could be a multiple offender with all kinds of crimes to your name, and decide "Well, I don't think any of them were actually turpitudinous as such", and tick the 'No' box.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Moral Turpitude

                      Though by doing so you expose yourself (heh) to being prosecuted for the separate crime of having made false statements to a government official.

                      The reason why cases like this go so far up the judicial chain is that being convicted of a crime involving moral turpitude is grounds for deportation from the US.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Moral Turpitude

                        Without the ever present threat of being turfed out for gross moral turpitude, many fine university novels of the '60's and '70's would have been stranded without a plot.

                        Malcolm Bradbury, bless your tweedy boots. Where would you have been without it?

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Moral Turpitude

                          This is interesting. I always assumed 'moral turpitude' was pretty much synonymous with 'depravity' - which just goes to show how little I know. But I guess the word depravity is also open to interpretation.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Moral Turpitude

                            It is basically synomnymous with depravity.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Moral Turpitude

                              Isn't it actually the case that the visa waiver form requires you to say if you're ever been arrested for moral turpitude, rather than actually convicted? Same with druggling smugs.

                              Boy, did I sweat out the journey to New York after I read those lines on the flight to NYJFK back in '98.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Moral Turpitude

                                The current questions appear to be as follows, note that a YES does not automatically disqualify you (though I wouldn't make book on someone answering yes to the terrorist question getting very far):

                                * Have you ever been arrested or convicted for any offense or crime, even though subject of a pardon, amnesty or other similar legal action? Have you ever unlawfully distributed or sold a controlled substance(drug), or been a prostitute or procurer for prostitutes?

                                Yes No

                                * Have you ever been refused admission to the U.S., or been the subject of a deportation hearing or sought to obtain or assist others to obtain a visa, entry into the U.S., or any other U.S. immigration benefit by fraud or willful misrepresentation or other unlawful means? Have you attended a U.S. public elementary school on student (F) status or a public secondary school after November 30, 1996 without reimbursing the school?

                                Yes No

                                * Do you seek to enter the United States to engage in export control violations, subversive or terrorist activities, or any other unlawful purpose? Are you a member or representative of a terrorist organization as currently designated by the U.S. Secretary of State? Have you ever participated in persecutions directed by the Nazi government of Germany; or have you ever participated in genocide?

                                Yes No

                                * Have you ever violated the terms of a U.S. visa, or been unlawfully present in, or deported from, the United States?

                                Yes No

                                * Have you ever withheld custody of a U.S. citizen child outside the United States from a person granted legal custody by a U.S. court, voted in the United States in violation of any law or regulation, or renounced U.S. citizenship for the purpose of avoiding taxation?

                                Yes No

                                * Have you ever been afflicted with a communicable disease of public health significance or a dangerous physical or mental disorder, or ever been a drug abuser or addict?

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Moral Turpitude

                                  Wasn't it the Moral Turpitude thing that got Sebastian Horsley turned away at immigration when he was coming for a book tour for his "Dandy of the Underworld" book? Or was it described as that because it made a better story?

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Moral Turpitude

                                    I'm really disappointed that they've dropped some of my favourite ones:

                                    Are you a terrorist?

                                    Were you involved in the Nazi atrocities of 1939-1945?

                                    Do you intend to overthrow the US government using violence or subversion?


                                    (To which my friend and colleague Andrew Mueller once replied "Subversion". The immigration officials didn't see the funny side, and he was detained at the airport for hours.)

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Moral Turpitude

                                      They also used to ask about whether or not you'd ever been a member of the Communist Party. To which I carefully replied Yes, before realising that I'd not...

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Moral Turpitude

                                        If we had access to the old board, I could link to my story about being asked if I had ever been unconscious in a Warsaw Pact country.

                                        They just re-worded the other questions, though they have taken out the express reference to Communist Party affiliation (presumably because it offends Chinese trade officials).

                                        From the second question in the list above:

                                        "Do you seek to enter the United States to engage in export control violations, subversive or terrorist activities , or any other unlawful purpose? Are you a member or representative of a terrorist organization as currently designated by the U.S. Secretary of State? Have you ever participated in persecutions directed by the Nazi government of Germany; or have you ever participated in genocide?"

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Moral Turpitude

                                          ursus arctos wrote:
                                          If we had access to the old board, I could link to my story about being asked if I had ever been unconscious in a Warsaw Pact country.

                                          They just re-worded the other questions, though they have taken out the express reference to Communist Party affiliation (presumably because it offends Chinese trade officials).

                                          From the second question in the list above:

                                          "Do you seek to enter the United States to engage in export control violations, subversive or terrorist activities , or any other unlawful purpose? Are you a member or representative of a terrorist organization as currently designated by the U.S. Secretary of State? Have you ever participated in persecutions directed by the Nazi government of Germany; or have you ever participated in genocide?"
                                          Sorry. I'm doing way too much skim-reading lately.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Moral Turpitude

                                            I always liked the idea that after 40 years on the run, Josef Mengele would have come to justice because he couldn't tell a lie on the immigration form.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Moral Turpitude

                                              How many terrorists have they caught using the questions?

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Moral Turpitude

                                                Well, all but one of the Militant Wing of the Village Idiots Association were caught out like that. The one escapee only avoided capture because he got on the wrong plane and ended up defecting to the Russians.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Moral Turpitude

                                                  "I always liked the idea that after 40 years on the run, Josef Mengele would have come to justice because he couldn't tell a lie on the immigration form". And thats the point really, isn't it? Having been a member of the communist party is not a crime in the US, but telling a lie on your immigration form is. Same as with "moral turpitude". I think it is deliberately nebulous as it enables the authorites to instigate deportation proceedings against individuals who have done nothing that would constitute a serious crime in the US but who are nevertheless "undesirable"

                                                  Comment

                                                  Working...
                                                  X