The Oirish

[Guest]

The Oirish

Not heard that one before, but to be honest, at this stage there is very little which could emerge from the North's vaults that would surprise me.

If, say, it happened to come out that The Egyptian and his now sadly deceased brother were/are in the pay of Republican Sinn Fein, that might raise an eyebrow at Vennegoor of Hesselink Towers.

[Duncan Gardner]

The Oirish

I'd be more sympathetic to MK's complaint about systematic anti-Irish racism, if he didn't regularly sneer at other Irish people for being British, anti-intellectual, unlikely to make university and basically poor. All this before they ever attend an Orange Lodge, join an illegal organisation or even vote.

Paramilitarism isn't a culture, anti-intellectual or otherwise. It's systematic organised crime based on defending territory and (loosely) party politics. So whether unionists in Long Kesh are more likely to bench-press and listen to skinhead Oi music, than read Dostoyevsky, is pretty much irrelevant. The clue's in the location.

Point taken on the perspective/ no parallax thing, mind. It is surprising that until quite recently, and certainly in my time, we were all schooled in technical drawing for potential jobs in engineering design.

Anyway, culture itself can be overrated. Stoned culchies offering interminable versions of She moved thro' the fair on oversize ukuleles? Do me a facking favor, innit?

(As you may have guessed, I'm a bit frustrated at the slow process of musical self-tuition. I understand MK is available for lessons- maybe we could sort something on my next trip thru Dublin?).

Unless I've missed something, MK's evidence for the British state's ongoing murderish cuntishness over decades includes,

* a Bermuda triangle style plane crash 40 years ago that most people in Ireland (let alone Britain) have probably never heard of

* half-hearted efforts to smear Sinn Fein at Stormont

* UDA bombings in the Republic 35 years ago which the Dublin government (as much as the British) barely bothered to investigate

I mean, it's hardly the Holocaust or Cultural Revolution is it?

[Guest]

The Oirish

Erm . . . aren't you forgetting the small matter of the British army spending decades colluding with loyalists to kill Catholics?

[E10 Rifle]

The Oirish

And I'd hardly described the attempts to smear Sinn Fein at Stormont is "half-hearted" - their effect was to close down the government for five years, which strikes me as a pretty good, concerted effort all told.

[Duncan Gardner]

The Oirish

No. As ever, put up some evidence in specific cases and I'll consider it. The general point remains- MK's theory is a mixture of conspiracy, trivia and (in the plane crash example) absurdity.

Aren't you forgetting Sinn Fein's role (refusing to, effectively, accept the rule of law for decades) in the various closures of Stormont?

[Guest]

The Oirish

Duncan Gardner wrote:

No. As ever, put up some evidence in specific cases and I'll consider it.

Well, there's the Stevens Report for a start.

[E10 Rifle]

The Oirish

Aren't you forgetting Sinn Fein's role (refusing to, effectively, accept the rule of law for decades) in the various closures of Stormont?

No, I'm addressing the specific point that was raised, the fabricated spy-ring stuff that, after the ceasefires, paralysed the government for some time.

I know you evidently don't think it's much of a big deal - perhaps you don't think collusion is either - fair enough, but it'd be more honest if you just said so.

[Duncan Gardner]

The Oirish

I was also addressing the specific point- I don't think the Brits fitting up some Shinners at Stormont is the sole (or even main) cause of stasis there. Which didn't bring government to a standstill, of course. And, obviously, even allowing for MK's trademark exaggeration, I don't think it's a significant factor in the troublings over 25 years.

Less of the snides- you know perfectly well that I acknowledge and condemn that some British Police and Army individuals have been convicted on working with unionist paramilitaries. I've said on here regularly.

If you're unhappy with my level of honesty, tough. If it bothers you that much, send me a synopsis of what I think to countersign. No excuse me, I've a play off climax to listen to.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

The Oirish

I'd be more sympathetic to MK's complaint about systematic anti-Irish racism, if he didn't regularly sneer at other Irish people for being British, anti-intellectual, unlikely to make university and basically poor. All this before they ever attend an Orange Lodge, join an illegal organisation or even vote.

hold on, now that's just being silly. Saying that ulster loyalism is an anti-intellectual culture isn't exactly that contentious a statement. It's an awful, stupid, backwards looking, dead-end way of thinking, where the most valued attributes are unthinking loyalty, and steadfastness to a monarch who has moved on a long time ago.

Its two major public activities are a historically dubious commemoration of the williamite wars, by (a) poisoning themselves by building gigantic bonfires out of chemically treated pallets and car tires (one of the worst things you can burn) (b) coat trailing marches designed to remind people of who is in charge (even if that isn't really that true anymore)

However, I don't see how pointing out that people who come from loyalist strongholds are amongst the least likely to go to university is sneering, it's an objective fact. The british govt is pouring a lot of money into 'interface' areas to improve educational prospects in both communities.

Paramilitarism isn't a culture, anti-intellectual or otherwise. It's systematic organised crime based on defending territory and (loosely) party politics. So whether unionists in Long Kesh are more likely to bench-press and listen to skinhead Oi music, than read Dostoyevsky, is pretty much irrelevant. The clue's in the location.

The first bit of this is a very accurate description of loyalist paramilitarism, but only captures a part of what the IRA did. They're all a pack of cunts but the IRA operated on several different levels that loyalism didn't. They were able to carry out an international campaign of terrorism, raise funds internationally and negotiate financial and military support from a number of different sources.

Also they were vastly more politically sophisticated, some of them are now driving around in state cars, while the heads of loyalism are still shooting each other over drug deals. They also drew on a much broader cross section of the population, and the point here is that they were able to find enough people prepared to become involved who had a very high level of technical education. Loyalists never were quite able to convince shorts engineers to help them to design bomb mechanisms.

* a Bermuda triangle style plane crash 40 years ago that most people in Ireland (let alone Britain) have probably never heard of

The problem here is it seems most likely that the plane suffered from a mechanical failure, but the problem is that the british govt won't reveal their records for that missile test range 40 years later, so it can be ruled out as a possible cause.

The question that is raised by this is why is the British MOD refusing to co-operate with an enquiry into a long passed tragedy, being carried out by the parliament of a neighboring state. They don't even care that people will see them as dark, shady, sinister and probably guilty. They just don't care.

* UDA bombings in the Republic 35 years ago which the Dublin government (as much as the British) barely bothered to investigate

There's a very good reason why this wasn't investigated. Can you imagine what would have happened if the Irish Government accused the british of involvement in this bombing? Firstly it's an act of war, carried out against a friendly government, and major trading partner. What the hell were we supposed to do? declare war? Secondly it would have turned nearly everyone in the republic into an IRA supporter, and lead to a massive escalation in the conflict.

Aren't you forgetting Sinn Fein's role (refusing to, effectively, accept the rule of law for decades) in the various closures of Stormont?

Er, the major effect of the sinn fein spy ring wasn't on sinn Fein. It destroyed David Trimble, the UUP and moderate unionism, and made it difficult for the SDLP to fend off the march of Sinn Fein. It delayed a final settlement by many years, and further polarized the situation. (all of which suits the security services right down to the ground)

Also the thing here isn't to compare it with sinn fein's footdragging, we know they're a pack of cunts. The point is that the spy ring was invented by the paid agents of a democratically elected government, that is supposed to be an honest broker in this situation. They shouldn't be doing things like this.

I don't think that it's much of a secret that the british govt carried out a pretty dirty war in NI during the troubles. It was an unpleasant situation, but it doesn't do anything to dispel an unfavorable impression that at the heart of the british government/military establishment are a core of people who are prepared to subvert democracy and kill people in other countries, throughout their former dominions and if needs be at home, in pursuit of their narrow interests.

[Wyatt Earp]

The Oirish

When at any time, a bit of straight dealing would have worked wonders.

I think TMK is largely spot on here, you know.

[anton pulisov]

The Oirish

I'd say almost everybody in Cork knows about the Tuskar Rock plane crash.

[garcia]

The Oirish

Also they were vastly more politically sophisticated, some of them are now driving around in state cars, while the heads of loyalism are still shooting each other over drug deals. They also drew on a much broader cross section of the population, and the point here is that they were able to find enough people prepared to become involved who had a very high level of technical education. Loyalists never were quite able to convince shorts engineers to help them to design bomb mechanisms.

it's nonsensical to say that the loyalist terror groups' lack of sophistication was the result of the anti-intellectualism of NI protestant working-class culture. i'm sure the loyalist communities produced plenty of people intelligent enough to build a bomb, but they would all have been working for the RUC or the british army.

it's clear the IRA was more sophisticated than, say, the UVF, but it's not an equivalent comparison. only the dregs of the loyalist community would have been drawn to their paramilitary groups, whereas for republicans the IRA was the only show in town.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

The Oirish

Your second point is kind of part of what I am saying about the first. The UDA and UVF would have little appeal to the middle class. Northern Ireland has a pretty good technical education system, but not many of its graduates were queuing up to help johnny adair.

his limited appeal meant that he was more heavily dependent on his own community. It's not easy to build a reliable bomb mechanism. You need a pretty high level of education, and the areas where the UDA and UVF are strongest have some of the lowest levels of educational attainment in britain.

The IRA on the other hand were building huge mortars and remote detonated bombs and exporting this technology to colombian narco-terrorists. There was enough people in their sympathetic community with the level of technical education for there to be some that were willing to help them.

[Guest]

The Oirish

And the IRA also had a fair bit of American money coming in from Noraid.

[garcia]

The Oirish

There was enough people in their sympathetic community with the level of technical education for there to be some that were willing to help them.

my point is that the equivalent people in the loyalist community could defend the union by joining legitimate organisations such as the RUC and the army. only the rough as fuck, scum of the earth types would be joining a vigilante gang like the UVF and their relative lack of sophistication is no index to the intellectual level of the working class loyalist population.

[radmonkey]

The Oirish

This topic reminds me of a book called "How the Irish Became White". It deals with Irish assimilation in the US and how they went from being thought as subhuman fit only for jobs you wouldn't risk slaves on to just another group of "white" people.

[AMMS]

The Oirish

Also Sprach Zaratoro wrote:

Yeah, the Scots are pretty hilarious too, wherever they turn up, but let them have their own thread

No no, we're much happier taking a bit of yours.