The Oirish

[Stumpy Pepys]

I was trying to work out the timeline from the Irish being considered a bunch of workshy ignorant Paddies (which wasn't that long ago), to the present period where they're now salt-of-the-earth, love-the-craic, all-round lovable folk.

So how exactly did this change come about? I guess the music scene played some part, as did Jack Charlton's Ireland team. But you lot are clever folk, please fill in the gaps for me.

[Ek weet nie]

The Oirish

The IRA ceasefire probably helped too.

[Wyatt Earp]

The Oirish

I think the Pogues played a part, making Irishness fashionable for a time. The end of the IRA's campaign in Great Britain was also crucial; a lot of the mocking was veiled hostility. Then there's the rise of alternative comedy and the eclipse of the trad Northern comic with his "This Irish fella goes into a bar", which went along with open racism becoming less socially acceptable generally.

Finally, the Irish stopped being poor. The poor are always despised, because it allows them to be blamed for their own poverty.

[Wyatt Earp]

The Oirish

What everyone else has said, in other words.

For a while, the acceptable face of that kind of attitude became hating the Welsh instead, didn't it? Especially when the Right felt they had to keep Kinnock out.

[Wyatt Earp]

The Oirish

There's a bit of "Out of the frying pan, into the fire" about it all, though, isn't there? The Irish now have to contend with at least four versions of the Stage Irishman: the old-fashioned "Will Oi Tarmac yorr droive sorr?" one with the older Brits, the "Crack was mighty" one among the younger Brits, the twinkly-eyed lepre-corny pain in the arse for Americans and their own home-grown "Divil the drap I'll swally" JM Synge version. It must be pretty wearing.

[Wyatt Earp]

The Oirish

CarnivorousVulgaris wrote:

Yeah, SR's book about the Manics contains a section outlining how, once prejudice against Irish and Asians was no longer socially acceptable, it became fashionable to kick the Welsh around ...

So it does.

What a great book that is, actually. Sorry to be a suck-up.

[Guest]

The Oirish

This man changed everything.

He singlehandedly dragged us through the bad times and into a new dawn.

[MsD]

The Oirish

CarnivorousVulgaris wrote:

-The Celtic Tiger economy leading to a greater international profile and presenting Ireland as a credible place for international corporations to set up shop, which in turn helped erode the image of Irish being ignorant or workshy

EC/EU membership helped a great deal, not just in providing cash but enhancing their status as a independent modern nation, rather than Britain's poor, troublesome relation or the sentimental "old country" ...

[Er Liquidatore]

The Oirish

Haha VS. A mate of mine had to contend with being repeatedly called 'Mud Irish' by his girlfriend's mum's new boyfriend the other week. He was a vicar.

Not only that, but after giving them their bed to sleep in, heard the stuck pig squealing of her mum being what he referred to as 'goosed'.

[E10 Rifle]

The Oirish

Of course, the Irish are about to start being poor again, thanks to the glaring weaknesses of their political set-up and an economic system that they were applaued for embracing, not so long ago.

[Brandenburger Toro]

The Oirish

I think what actually happened is that we bombed manners into you all.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

The Oirish

I think it got to the point that there were just too many irish people in england. at some point in the last 20 years the number of Irish born and First generation immigrants hit nearly 1.7 million.

Add into that the huge numbers of people with some Irish ancestry across huge parts of england and it became a bit redundant. To pick a couple of examples Imagine you tell a joke about the stupid irish to a bunch of footballers called Wayne, rio, caleb and clinton, who would expect that a stony silence would be the best you'd receive.

Racist jokes require you to be able to clearly identify members of the group you're slurring.

But I think that a big factor is that a large number of the Irish immigrants became better off, and became increasingly middle class and moved to the suburbs. The Poles have now occupied the niche that we used to of heavy drinking, catholic manual labourers. Also the emigration over recent years has been the voluntary migration of well educated people.

[Brandenburger Toro]

The Oirish

By the way, VS, something very strange has happened to what I can only assume used to be a picture of Brian O'Driscoll.

[Wyatt Earp]

The Oirish

Imagine you tell a joke about the stupid irish to a bunch of footballers called Wayne, rio, caleb and clinton, who would expect that a stony silence would be the best you'd receive.

But the thing about that is that if you go back to the 70s you find a footballer called Kevin Keegan, not to mention a PM and Chancellor called, respectively, Callaghan and Healey. And it didn't make a blind bit of difference; half the jokes were still about the Irish feller who tried to blow up the QE2 but couldn't get his mouth round the funnel.

[Taylor]

The Oirish

The Mighty Kubelgog!!! wrote:

Imagine you tell a joke about the stupid irish to a bunch of footballers called Wayne, rio, caleb and clinton, who would expect that a stony silence would be the best you'd receive.

Rooney wouldn't be bothered - according to his autobiography, he "doesn't know" if his ancestors were Irish. As I think I said at the time, maybe Liverpool is full of pale, red-haired people with Irish names whose families come from somewhere else.

My old English teacher - the spit of Terry Wogan - once announced as fact that Irish jokes dried up in this country after an Irishman won Mastermind. I think he may have been talking bollocks, as was his wont.

Agree with WE that it was kind of weird how a country full to the brim of part-Irish people engaged so enthusiastically in Paddy-bashing jokes. Pretty much everyone I've ever met has an Irish grandfather or something - that seems to be one way in which Irish immigrants managed to assimilate fairly quickly.

[anton pulisov]

The Oirish

Legalising divorce and contraception.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

The Oirish

Fair dues to wayne, he only has the three living irish grandparents.

WE my point about the footballers is not that rio ferdinand etc are all Devoted sons of the gael, but that they all have irish grandparents, but you wouldn't necesarily know. People in general just get more cranky about having part of their background racially abused nowadays.

[John Godot]

The Oirish

Travelling far and wide pretty much the only Irish stereotype left standing (about the people that is) that I've really encountered is that of us being heavy drinkers one and all.

Although if you've ever been in Clonmel or Cashel on the weekend, I couldn't really refute you.

[garcia]

The Oirish

The Irish now have to contend with at least four versions of the Stage Irishman:

there's now a fifth stage irishman - the racehorse-owning business titan who thought he was rich, but was in fact just a complete cunt.

i think the real change here is that foreigner-baiting in general has become less acceptable in britain. prejudice towards foreigners was once entirely normal and is now seen as a mark of ignorance and bad taste; this isn't just true of attitudes to irish people. the other day i saw a bit of only fools and horses, which i'd never considered a racist show - del boy walks into a bar, sees [asian character], and says something like "i saw your wife the other day, she doesn't 'alf have a bad spot on her forehead!" now that i think of it, del boy then meets an irish builder character in the bar, but i switched over to something else so i dunno what happened. anyway, you just can't get away with that kind of shit any more.

hardy bucks isn't bad, but do you think they've seen trailer park boys?

[Guest]

The Oirish

prejudice towards foreigners was once entirely normal and is now seen as a mark of ignorance and bad taste

But on the other hand, the Sun still sells about 2.5 million copies a day.

[Er Liquidatore]

The Oirish

It's a combination of prejudice against foreigners being less (but not un) acceptable, and the Irish aren't a threat anymore, not when compared to those dastardly Muslims.

[meregreen]

The Oirish

Isn't it the process of assimilation that eventually embraces all minorites who've been here long enough. It took longer than normal because of the IRA, but when their campaign ended we could become friends with the Irish, which is something most wanted all along. In part because so many of us are descended from the Irish.

St Paddy's night, which appears to have been adopted by the British as a celebration of boozing, might have accelerated this process. I think there is still a strong perception that the Irish are big pissheads and therefore the way we celebrate Irishness is to get completely hammered. It's almost a tribute to their drinking culture.

I once played in a football team in south London in which all ten outfield players were catholic. All of us were British, but our roots were all Irish catholic with names like Doherty, O'Connor, O'Toole etc. We all met by chance which gives you an indication of how extensive the Irish influence is in England.

In 1990 I went to meet some mates in a pub to watch the England-Ireland World Cup match. I walked through the streets of Camberwell past about six pubs and every single one had Ireland flags in the window. So, perhaps the process of assimilation goes like this: banned from pubs - drink in pubs - run pubs – become accepted. In which case, the muslims are fucked for the foreseeable.

[WOM]

The Oirish

I think the process of assimilation is likely more complicated with each level of differentiation. The Irish may have always been easy to spot due to their accent, etc, but visual and cultural assimilation would be easier to achieve over time. Imagine being of different skin colour, plus different religion, plus different cultural attitudes (alcohol, inter-cultural dating, etc) and assimilation's going to be a long time coming.

[Gangster Octopus]

The Oirish

The long overdue death of Michael Cummings can't have been anything other than helpful.

[Bored Of Education]

The Oirish

Although not necesarily disagreeing with what SR appears to be saying (I haven't read th ebook), I am always wary about this "Welsh being the new Irish/Pakistanis/blacks" notion.

While "Pakis/Niggers Go Home" and "No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs" signs are within a generation and living memory, the closest that the Welsh have had is the Welsh not which, although pretty brutal and discrimanatory, is not on the same level as the above especially considering its contextual use (i.e. all schooling was brutal). Equally, of course, although there are rumours of early 20th Century use, it was a long time ago.

Similary, the Welsh have always been a large part of colonising military forces, have hardly had a huge nationalist vigour along the lines of the Irish and, arguably, have largely been wilfully subserviant to English rule.

I always remember wincing when a Welsh ex=pat associate of the Cardiff memebers of OTF who was in the police was telling us that, while arresting a black guy, he was accused of being racist. His reply was something along the lines of "My race have been subjugated by the English for longer than yours"