Where's The MP's Expenses Thread?

[Anton Gramscescu]

Where's The MP's Expenses Thread?

Rent, buy, who cares? If they live further than a one hour commute (or whatever), give them a flat housing allowance. Then they can buy or rent or do whatever they like with it.

[Felicity, I guess so]

Where's The MP's Expenses Thread?

left-wing

From where The Sun is standing, perhaps

[Disco Child Ballads]

Where's The MP's Expenses Thread?

He's Scottish as well, which may be something that the Sun finds objectionable.

I just found out today that Martin was the first Catholic to hold the post of speaker since the reign of Mary I.

[E10 Rifle]

Where's The MP's Expenses Thread?

There has been some snobbery about Martin - being dubbed "Gorbals Mick" is a way of saying that people from that sort of area have no business being in parliament. How many Tory MPs are known as "Buckinghamshire Julian"?

But Martin's still shit, and classic old Labour rightwing, so he's no real loss either.

I'm with Chippy about the apparatchik problem: the answer is to reinvigorate internal and external democracy, and for people to get involved in that process, in whatever organisation they happen to be inclined towards. Which is why, parochial though it is, I flagged up the more cheering developments at Erith and Thamesmead at the weekend.

And why not have a publicly funded MPs' estate from which they could rent a place in London for work places. Take the lead on social housing - have 'em all transparently in the public rented sector.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Where's The MP's Expenses Thread?

A rude clown writes: I'm struggling to see what bogus ideology I'm purpotedly wishing to see upheld via the MP expenses system; if by bogus, you mean the idea that houses are places to live rather than investments to live off, then yes, I am in favour of that entirely ridiculous and bogus notion (ideology is a bit of stretch I think).

I don't think you're a clown, but didn't appreciate your swearing at me.

I don't understand what your bias against buying is here at all, and what you mean by an investment to live off. Buying is what you usually do when you can afford it, aren't eligible for massively subsidised rent, and you're going to be there a long time, as most safe seat MPs will be. I'm saying the proceeds of sale/renting out shouldn't be lived off by the MP.

Good post by E10 on Martin, I thought. George Galloway gave one of his less good performances on Question Time when asked about him. It was all about class, he said, before saying that everyone who criticised Martin was the sort of person who used to shout "gin and tonic" at John Prescott. I assume Martin would have waved Galloway out the door when he was expelled from Labour.

[Guest]

Where's The MP's Expenses Thread?

The "Gorbals Mick" nickname was coined by that slimy little lump of shit Quentin Letts of the Daily Mail.

[nefertiti]

Where's The MP's Expenses Thread?

I'm astonished that anyone is defending Michael Martin, to be honest. Not only did he show he wasn't qualified to chair a meeting in the local primary school to decide who should take the hamster home for the weekend, he has been a serious opponent of democracy, in Blair and Brown's pocket, preventing debate and discussion, on this as on many other issues. Had he not insisted on fighting the application of the Freedom of Information act to the Houses o parliament hey wouldn't be in the mess they're in. He and his family have benefited from taxis to go shopping, personal use of frequent flier miles and a second home allowance along with his grace and favour house.

And personally I think that allowing the police into the House of Commons to arrest a Tory was an extremely undemocratic and shameful gesture.

Still an argumentative Scot with time on his hands- welcome to WSC, Mr former Speaker!

[E10 Rifle]

Where's The MP's Expenses Thread?

I'm astonished that anyone is defending Michael Martin, to be honest.

Can you point out, then, anyone here who is?

[Felicity, I guess so]

Where's The MP's Expenses Thread?

Indeed-there's a big difference between recognising he's being scapegoated and 'defending' him.

What chance 'reform' etc when the old boys' club manoeuvres some Tory grandee into the role?

[nefertiti]

Where's The MP's Expenses Thread?

I don't accept he's being "scapegoated".

He has been sacked because he was a biased incompetent bully who had lost the confidence of the House of Commons and prevented any democratic discussion of any kind.

The way he treated Adie and Baker was stupid thuggery, and preventing any debate on the subsequent motion showed how utterly out of touch he was. He was a weak speaker and a placeman- that's why Blair wanted him to get the job.

And if a "Tory grandee" is selected who shows more respect for open debate, the sovereignty of Parliament and the principles of democratic representation than the controlling centralism of the Trotsko-New Labour Project then good on him or her.

And maybe no-one was explicitly defending him- But saying that the Sack the Speaker campaign was "nauseating" is certainly suggesting that it was a distraction. Yes he attracted a lot of repulsive class hatred- as the Tory grandee would-. But the man was hopeless.

[David Agnew]

Where's The MP's Expenses Thread?

E10 Rifle wrote:

There has been some snobbery about Martin - being dubbed "Gorbals Mick" is a way of saying that people from that sort of area have no business being in parliament. How many Tory MPs are known as "Buckinghamshire Julian"?

But Martin's still shit, and classic old Labour rightwing, so he's no real loss either.

I'm with Chippy about the apparatchik problem: the answer is to reinvigorate internal and external democracy, and for people to get involved in that process, in whatever organisation they happen to be inclined towards. Which is why, parochial though it is, I flagged up the more cheering developments at Erith and Thamesmead at the weekend.

And why not have a publicly funded MPs' estate from which they could rent a place in London for work places. Take the lead on social housing - have 'em all transparently in the public rented sector.

Why not let them have the athlete's village after 2012?

[David Agnew]

Where's The MP's Expenses Thread?

nefertiti wrote:

I don't accept he's being "scapegoated".

He has been sacked because he was a biased incompetent bully who had lost the confidence of the House of Commons and prevented any democratic discussion of any kind.

The way he treated Adie and Baker was stupid thuggery, and preventing any debate on the subsequent motion showed how utterly out of touch he was. He was a weak speaker and a placeman- that's why Blair wanted him to get the job.

And if a "Tory grandee" is selected who shows more respect for open debate, the sovereignty of Parliament and the principles of democratic representation than the controlling centralism of the Trotsko-New Labour Project then good on him or her.

And maybe no-one was explicitly defending him- But saying that the Sack the Speaker campaign was "nauseating" is certainly suggesting that it was a distraction. Yes he attracted a lot of repulsive class hatred- as the Tory grandee would-. But the man was hopeless.

No, he's resigned because as speaker, one of his duties is that he's supposed to protect the house from scandal, and he's clearly not managed that, so in that respect he is a scapegoat. And while he may have spent small amounts on taxis to go shopping, it should be pointed out that he had one of the very lowest expense claims of the entire house.

[Mitch]

Where's The MP's Expenses Thread?

Is Tony Benn still intending to stand in the next general election?

He'd be the perfect candidate if he became an MP again.

[nefertiti]

Where's The MP's Expenses Thread?

Of course he's got one of the lowest expenses claims of the house. As has been established, one of the largest expenses of an MP are (usually entirely justified) claims for researchers and secretarial support. He has his own staff and a huge budget as Speaker. Whatever expenses he has as an MP are in addition to that.

[Levin]

Where's The MP's Expenses Thread?

nefertiti wrote:

I don't accept he's being "scapegoated".

He has been sacked because he was a biased incompetent bully who had lost the confidence of the House of Commons and prevented any democratic discussion of any kind.

The way he treated Adie and Baker was stupid thuggery, and preventing any debate on the subsequent motion showed how utterly out of touch he was. He was a weak speaker and a placeman- that's why Blair wanted him to get the job.

And if a "Tory grandee" is selected who shows more respect for open debate, the sovereignty of Parliament and the principles of democratic representation than the controlling centralism of the Trotsko-New Labour Project then good on him or her.

And maybe no-one was explicitly defending him- But saying that the Sack the Speaker campaign was "nauseating" is certainly suggesting that it was a distraction. Yes he attracted a lot of repulsive class hatred- as the Tory grandee would-. But the man was hopeless.

But as Private Eye has been pointing out for the last 2 years he has been useless at his job ever since he got appointed. There has only been this movement to get rid of him since the expenses thing came to a head.

[ad hoc]

Where's The MP's Expenses Thread?

"Trotsko-New Labour"?

(Google shows zero hits, so it's obviously something that nef's just made up, but I'm intrigued to what end? To convince us that saying that Martin is not the only person to blame here is somehow defending him. Like we all defended Hamas? You do go down some curious thought-tracks, Nef.)

[Hofzinser]

Where's The MP's Expenses Thread?

He was a weak speaker and a placeman- that's why Blair wanted him to get the job.

I heard someone else say yesterday that Martin was a Blair placeman - but that's not true is it? My memory from the time of his election was that Blair and co were quite happy for the nominated Tory, Sir George Young, to take the post, in line with recent (although not historic) convention of alternating between the two main parties - and that it was actually the newly elected and emboldened Labour backbenchers who decided to put one of their own in situ.

[NHH]

Where's The MP's Expenses Thread?

Martin was one in the eye for the Tories, he was working class and Blair didn't really want him. None are good reasons in themselves in terms of reasons to elect a speaker, but the blame for acting in response to such stupidity is less the fault of Martin or Blair and more the bunch of fucking knob-ends collectively known as the Parliamentary Labour Party.

They were going through one of its warped outbreaks of fucking pointless class-warism (see also the attempts to ban foxhunting), where in guilt at being so fucking useless in pursuit of progressive causes, throws a sop to its youthful conscience and constituency tribalism.

Why upset the Tories by, ooh, being more progressive in tax policy when you can make gestures with all the importance of grabbing the back seat of the bus on a school trip?

[nefertiti]

Where's The MP's Expenses Thread?

Perhaps we have different understandings of what is meant by scapegoat.

If we are talking about what has happened in the expenses row- and in resisting the FoI as applied to the Houses of Parliament, then Martin (as one of the heads from which the fish has rotted) from is more than a scapegoat. His removal is one of the requirements for any kind of reform of Parliament to go ahead. I agree with those on here who say that Proportional Representation is crucial and not the least of New Labour betrayals was their reneging on that commitment.

The Trotsko-New Labour phrase may be a new coinage, but it's simply a fact. An extraordinary number of New Labour figures have a background in Trotskyism. The Trotskyist had a developed strategy of "entryism" where they could take over the party and convert it to a socialist agenda. They finally managed it, but with one small amendment, they replaced socialist with "warmongering neo-con". They retained the strategy, and got rid of the ideology.

Steve Bells' cartoon today says it all.

[Nocturnal Submission]

Where's The MP's Expenses Thread?

The way he treated Adie and Baker was stupid thuggery,

Now, that's just Hoey!

[E10 Rifle]

Where's The MP's Expenses Thread?

There's certainly something in Nef's second paragraph about the political background of many of the current crop. The journey from sectarian Leninism to sectarian NewLabourism has been a remarkably easy one for many to make, and has barely required a change of tactics.

[Wyatt Earp]

Where's The MP's Expenses Thread?

Who are the ex-Trots, though? John Reid was CP, Jack Straw was "Broad Left".

[nefertiti]

Where's The MP's Expenses Thread?

Alistair Darling, Alan Milburn, Stephen Byers have all been "in or near far-left groups"

And of course the Milibands will have received a pretty good education in Trotskyism.

[Wyatt Earp]

Where's The MP's Expenses Thread?

Ah, OK. But do that lot predominate over the ex-Tankies and Eurocommunists?

I'm not sure this says all that much about New Labour in particular, really. Old Labour had plenty of eminent ex-Marxists, and so, for that matter, did Thatcher's Tories.

[ad hoc]

Where's The MP's Expenses Thread?

There's a load of fascinating statistical analyses of the expenses and the MPs who claimed them linked from here