Basic question for food and drink connoisseurs

[Reed John]

People who care and claim to know about wine and food often talk about appropriate "pairings" - this wine goes well with this kind of fish dish, this one goes well with roast mutton, etc.

I see the same thing on a lot of brewpub menus. Indeed, a big part of the ongoing effort to convince the public that there's more to beer than frat boys doing keg-stands with Bud Light is to get chefs and brewers telling people about which beers "go with" which dishes.

I understand the general principle here. Some tastes help bring out other tastes or balance each other or whatever, but I don't understand how it works at all. I don't have any clue what brings out what or what balances with what or any of that.

I know that coffee goes well with doughnuts and other sweet pastries. I know that chocolate and whiskey is a surprisingly good pairing. I know that it's a bad idea to drink orange juice right after brushing ones teeth.

But that's about all. Otherwise, I just order the dish that sounds good and order the beer that appeals with no concept as to how they go together. Sometimes I'll take the advice of a pairing suggested on the menu if there is one, but I'm just trusting them then.

What are the basic principles or perhaps science behind pairing food and drink? I assume there are some. How can I go about learning how to figure this out for myself?

[WOM]

Basic question for food and drink connoisseurs

Excellent thread idea. I suspect WE may be your man on this topic. Perhaps 1890, as well.
May I just make a request that the phrase "wash it down with", or any variation thereon, not be used at all? Cheers.
I tend to drink darker stuff in the colder months (ales, Guinness, etc) and lighter stuff in the warmer months (Mexican beers, generally). I've come in for a public de-pantsing on my 'tastes', but what can you do?

[San Bernardhinault]

Basic question for food and drink connoisseurs

I can't tell you the physiological stuff. Wyatt or Toro are your men on that, particularly Toro as he's been reading This and Brillat-Savarin.

The first, and most important thing, though, is to not have something that tastes really strong with something that doesn't, because you'll swamp the flavour of either the food or wine. Which is why, with heavily flavoured red meats, you generally go for heavy red wines like Bordeaux; and why you have subtler, gentler, white wines with fish.

Also, generally, sweetness stands up very well, which is why a sweet dessert wine works well with, er, dessert. But also why a semi-sweet gewurtztraminer works surprisingly well with Indian food.

[Guest]

Basic question for food and drink connoisseurs

Reed of the Valley People wrote:

How can I go about learning how to figure this out for myself?

Books may help (I gather there's some theory in these as well as lists of stuff):

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0821257188/
and
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0471794074/

I have one or two of these as ebooks (PDFs), and I can send you a free download link if you PM me.

[Reed John]

Basic question for food and drink connoisseurs

That would be lovely. PM coming.

Contrary to the general wisdom, I don't find Guiness to really be "heavy." It's not really light either, but when it's good it's got a nice hoppy "edge" to it and if it's served reasonably cold it does just fine in the summer, I think.

To me, "heavy" means something like Skullsplitter or a Scottish Ale that seems to be sticking to all sides of one's tongue at the same time.

[Wyatt Earp]

Basic question for food and drink connoisseurs

I don't know much of the theory behind this at all; I have a few scattered rules of thumb, that's all. Certainly, if both your food and your booze are decent, you don't want one to swamp the other. Also, I think the fish with white wine thing makes sense, for the same reason that fish with lemon makes sense: fish just goes well with a bit of tartness. Other than that, I break supposed "rules" all over the place. A lot of it is oneupmanship.

Having said that, there are some specific pairings that seem to go really well. Some piggyback on a kind of ethnic appropriateness; having Dutch gin with raw herring, or vodka with blinis, or whatever. Stout with oysters is another one of those, perhaps, as is German sausage with German beer. Others, like Traminer with Chinese food, are ethnically all over the place, and just a happy accident.

Vinegary dishes and asparagus are really tricky; no wine really seems to taste nice with them. The vinegar thing is one reason I always have beer, or a cup of tea, with fish and chips.

One more thing, which I think I've mentioned before. There's something in Pizza Hut pizzas that ruins all wine. Absolutely all wine tastes shit with Pizza Hut pizza. You could be drinking Chateau Lafitte 1961, and it would taste shit with Pizza Hut pizza. Even the kind of Italian red that you'd think would be just right (decent Italian red sets food off a treat, because of its slight bitterness) tastes shit with Pizza Hut pizza. Why this is I've no idea.

[San Bernardhinault]

Basic question for food and drink connoisseurs

Actually, generally I have a problem with wine and pizza, which are pretty much my two favourite things. Even with good pizza, wine basically doesn't go, and beer is often better. I think it's something to do with the tomatoes, but I'm not quite sure. And, really, rough Italian wine is as good as anything. Never drink anything even vaguely expensive with pizza.

[San Bernardhinault]

Basic question for food and drink connoisseurs

On the subject of pizza hut pizzas, by the way, there is something very strange about them. I hadn't noticed that they destroy wine.

But, firstly, despite on all objective grounds being utterly rubbish, there's something about the pizza hut pizza that I really like. Something that Dominos, for example, fails miserably at.

But also, there's some chemical construct in pizza hut's pizzas, probably mostly the immense volumes of salt and msg, that apparently makes me snore more than almost anything else does.

[WOM]

Basic question for food and drink connoisseurs

I don't think it's possible to adequately express my horror at the two of you (of all people) discussing Pizza Hut pizza. I keep looking around for hidden cameras, suspecting I'm being punked.

Pizza Hut pizza would almost certainly destroy any wine. It's also likely to destroy tastebuds, and (I'm fairly certain) entire families.

Is there so little pizza in England that Pizza Hut is suspected of making good pizza?

[Wyatt Earp]

Basic question for food and drink connoisseurs

No, there's lots of pizza in England. And no, I don't think PH is any good.

[San Bernardhinault]

Basic question for food and drink connoisseurs

No. Pizza Hut pizza is genuinely bad. But somehow, for reasons I can't explain, I get pleasure from eating it. I'd rarely choose it myself - there's enough good pizza in London, and I can cook better pizza - but when others have it, incomprehenisbly I enjoy it.

This is why the comparison with Dominos, which is actually really horrible, and pretty much irredeemable.

[WOM]

Basic question for food and drink connoisseurs

Phew. Okay. Everything has righted itself again.

Oddly, I don't mind Dominos pizza.

I think we're likely spoiled for choice in Toronto. There are some decent chains and a hell of a lot of good indy places. Not enough of those nice, authentic sit-down places you associate with Chicago or New York, though.

[Bruno]

Basic question for food and drink connoisseurs

Making your own pizza is the way to go if you're up for it.

[WOM]

Basic question for food and drink connoisseurs

Oh, and I propose the admins rename the underutilized 'Books' forum 'Books & Food'.

All in favour...

[WOM]

Basic question for food and drink connoisseurs

Bruno wrote:

Making your own pizza is the way to go if you're up for it.

I can't get a good, even crust going.

[Bruno]

Basic question for food and drink connoisseurs

Obviously depends on how you're going about making the dough, but it should be elastic and thus require repeated stretching, which I just do with my hands by sort of pulling out from the center first and then stretching around the perimeter (as opposed to tossing it in the air). It doesn't come out looking perfect but the flavor's the thing.

[Reed John]

Basic question for food and drink connoisseurs

What sort of bev goes well with your basic pasta in a slightly spicy red sauce? I order that sort of thing a lot.

[Bruno]

Basic question for food and drink connoisseurs

I usually go with a Chianti for that. Not very original I know.

[WOM]

Basic question for food and drink connoisseurs

Not with liver and fava beans, no.

[Wyatt Earp]

Basic question for food and drink connoisseurs

Reed of the Valley People wrote:

What sort of bev goes well with your basic pasta in a slightly spicy red sauce? I order that sort of thing a lot.

Anything, really, but I wouldn't waste a pricy wine on it, because tomato sauces tend to flatten the taste of what you drink them with. I reckon you're best with something like a big dark Old World red wine, from Italy or the Sarf of France. Something assertive without being too fruity.

[SpanglyPrincess]

Basic question for food and drink connoisseurs

most italians would drink beer with pizza, and even if they did go for wine it would only ever be vino della casa sold by the litre in a carafe, nothing decent. pizza is for beer and football.

as for pairings, the not overwhelming one flavour with another is one good rule. another is to think about balance eg a very salty flavour like blue cheese needs something reasonably powerful to go with it but can take something quite sweet to balance it out. something sickly or rich is nice with something a bit sharp or refreshing as a contrast or to cut through it.

[Moonlight Shadow]

Basic question for food and drink connoisseurs

You can play around a fair bit. A light fruity red won'd to any harm to a fish dish say. I like to match up beer with food as well. A good golden ale goes wondefully well with foods from Asia and I recently enjoyed a great stout with a thai dish. A robust winter ale, of the more malty variety does match very well with a rich beef dish or indeed game.

Then there is dry cider (not that Magner's crap) which replaces white wine quite well.

That said, there is one dish that I can't match with any alcohol, fish&chips, nothing is better with it than a strong cup of tea really...

[Reed John]

Basic question for food and drink connoisseurs

For some reason, the idea of a hot drink with dinner doesn't seem to work for me. It goes well with breakfast or after dinner with dessert, but I can't imagine black tea with dinner.

Green tea before dinner, like you get in Chinese places, is ok. But with dinner, which is usually spicy, I want water.

I especially can't imagine tea with fish and chips. Some how greasy and hot tea don't work in my mind. Not sure why.

[WOM]

Basic question for food and drink connoisseurs

But again, that's the 'offsetting factor' at work. Like water or a 'quenching' beer with spicy foods. Black tea is the 'gritty' drink that cuts the grease.

[Reed John]

Basic question for food and drink connoisseurs

Hmm. I think it's more the hotness and not so much the teaness of it that doesn't seem to work for me.