Non-stick pans

[linus]

Non-stick pans

Ceramic chef knives, which are harder than any type of steel, are a bit of a novelty item in some culinary circles like in California, which is more exposed to Far Eastern fads. As far as TV chefs, Ming Tsai is a big proponent, to the point where he's been sponsored. Here's his ceramic pitch:

[radmonkey]

Non-stick pans

Those are TV chefs, the real cooks down in the trenches are usually chopping and slicing with the cheaper stuff. They could honestly care less about spending more than a days wages on a knife.
Being a line cook isn't as glamorous as they make it seem on tv.

[Wyatt Earp]

Non-stick pans

radmonkey wrote:

Those are TV chefs, the real cooks down in the trenches are usually chopping and slicing with the cheaper stuff. They could honestly care less about spending more than a days wages on a knife.
Being a line cook isn't as glamorous as they make it seem on tv.

Isn't it "couldn't care less"? "Could care less" can only mean that you care more than strictly necessary.

Anyway, the main thing I wanted to say is that I thought, from reading Tony Bourdain, that the big exception to that was the knives. Cut corners on everything else, but don't touch my knives; that sort of thing. Is that wrong?

[The Purple Cow]

Non-stick pans

The trick with stainless steel frying pans is to get the pan hot before you put the oil in, then you get a non-stick surface as good as any. Then just never-ever clean them - at least not with soap or detergent.

My mom, the first time she visited her future mother-in-law voluntered to do the washing up after dinner - as you do.

Unknowingly Mom washed up the frying pan - with soap. A frying pan that had been unexposed to soap for over 65 years, and had been passed down from three generations of moms to daughters. I think it's fair to say there mother/daughter-in-law relationship never really recovered from that catastrophic start.

[garcia]

Non-stick pans

i don't understand - don't ever wash your frying pan? what madness is this?

[anton pulisov]

Non-stick pans

I know that the first thing Chinese people do with new steel woks is "smoke" them, they pour oil on them and then heat the oil. After a few weeks of this, the surface of the wok becomes dark brown/black and makes the food taste smoky.

[Wyatt Earp]

Non-stick pans

Yeah, our wok is now at about 20 years soap-free, which isn't quite in Mrs Purple territory, but doing pretty well.

[linus]

Non-stick pans

That process is called curing or seasoning the pan: building up a thin layer of carbon on the steel surface, which makes the food not stick as much. You can get away with not curing a pan for just about everything except for a couple of things, like banana pancakes or some fish filets that will turn into little disasters when you try to flip them on a smooth steel pan.

A smooth steel pan will work well for steaks and eggs, because they stick at first but then gradually release themselves from the surface when done.

[linus]

Non-stick pans

rad, the thing about line cooks is that they are extremely exposed to injuries, two fold. First from cuts by using sharp instruments all day, second from carpal-tunnel type damage from repeating the same motions all day. A good knife is key to limiting both types of injuries. You want something that stays sharp well (dull knives are actually more dangerous as they tend to slip away from the food you're trying to cut and hit your other had), and kinves that are well-balanced, light and handle well.

[Guest]

Non-stick pans

> Those are TV chefs, the real cooks down in the
> trenches are usually chopping and slicing with the
> cheaper stuff.

Sure, that's why I doubt they were usin' the high-falutin' ceramic stuff...

Bourdain et al made a point of noting that high-end chefs use fairly high-end knives. I followed his advice and invested in Global knives, which are frankly spectacular, especially if used in comparison with, say, Henckel etc.

Again, anecdotal observation: a lot of line cooks use fairly cheap chef's knives. In the US, those tend to be a fairly generic brand, usually sporting a large white plastic handle. I can't remember which show or book talked about them (not Bourdain's KC book, I don't think), but they're very common in the US.

I guarantee you'll find something that looks almost exactly like this knife (Dexter Russell brand or similar) in your local eatery's kitchen. It's very cheap in comparison to the high end stuff and very common:

[Brandenburger Toro]

Non-stick pans

Oh, well if you guarantee it, I suppose it must be right, despite other posters' personal knowledge and/or reasoning on the topic.

The reason ceramic knives aren't in particularly wide use is that, while it can be made much harder and sharper than steel, it shatters easily. You can't smash cloves of garlic under it, you can't bone joints or anything else that requires a lot of twisting.

If you've got specialist knives for those tasks, fine, ceramic makes a lot of sense. It's sharper, and holds its sharpness better. But most line chefs - and many "serious" chefs, professional or otherwise, find that inconvenient and frivolous. You use a chef's knife, a filleting knife, and not much else.

The other thing is, if you're a line chef, you're regularly charpening your knife to a professional standard, which means the marginal advantage of ceramic's sharpness is much, much less.

I am disturbingly fond of knives.

[Er Liquidatore]

Non-stick pans

Um, why don't you wash your pans with soap again?

[Guest]

Non-stick pans

Abu Al Torotoro wrote:

Oh, well if you guarantee it, I suppose it must be right, despite other posters' personal knowledge and/or reasoning on the topic.

Go into a random middle-of-the-road restaurant (in the US), and you'll find those knives 99 out of 100 times. Note that you're the one taking up other posters' banners to tilt at windmills, not them.

most line chefs - and many "serious" chefs, professional or otherwise, find that inconvenient and frivolous. You use a chef's knife, a filleting knife, and not much else.

"Most line chefs" will be using the aforementioned types. I'm not sure we're disagreeing on anything here, aside from your sad tendency to have to start your posts with a personal insult in order to make yourself feel clever and big.

The other thing is, if you're a line chef, you're regularly charpening (sic!) your knife to a professional standard

Wait, people whose livelihood depends on their tools being in good shape are keeping their tools in good shape? ("Knives sharp. Fire often hot." -- Toro) Thank G-d you're in this thread to provide insight, mate.

I am disturbingly fond of knives.

Yeah, you're disturbing, alright.

[Brandenburger Toro]

Non-stick pans

Wait, people whose livelihood depends on their tools being in good shape are keeping their tools in good shape? ("Knives sharp. Fire often hot." -- Toro) Thank G-d you're in this thread to provide insight, mate.

You are some clown. The point was that the extra sharpness of ceramic knives is moot in a professional context.

As you'd know if you read the post rather than scanning it for possible grounds of insult.

[Wyatt Earp]

Non-stick pans

The_Liquidator wrote:

Um, why don't you wash your pans with soap again?

It's not all pans, it's carbon steel or cast iron pans for frying, especially at high temperature. They form their own non-stick coating that soap removes.

[Bruno]

Non-stick pans

When I saw a thread about non-stick pans, I thought to myself, now here is some inflammable OTF shit. There's never going to be agreement on that! It's like nitroglycerin.

[Guest]

Non-stick pans

Abu Al Torotoro wrote:

Wait, people whose livelihood depends on their tools being in good shape are keeping their tools in good shape? ("Knives sharp. Fire often hot." -- Toro) Thank G-d you're in this thread to provide insight, mate.

The point was that the extra sharpness of ceramic knives is moot in a professional context.

For someone who professes such a disturbing obsession with knives, you know very little about them. Do you even read any appropriate publications?

The point is not that ceramic knives add extra sharpness (which some may, no doubt), but that they stay sharp much longer. Which may actually be pretty handy if you use your knife non-stop, since you don't have to interrupt your work while Ramsey yells obscenities at you in order to sharpen your knives. (I'm pretty sure we were in agreement on everything else, including your assertions on alternative knife usage, which partly explains why they're not more popular with line cooks. But you just couldn't resist trying to be hostile yet again, turning the thread into a Toro-Induced Flamefest(tm). Oh well.)

You are some clown. [...]
As you'd know if you read the post rather than scanning it for possible grounds of insult.

Yeah, I had to scan your post really closely to discern the 'clown' insult hidden like a Straussian subtext between the lines. You really must be frothing at the mouth when you type your angry posts on OTF, given that apparently you forget one clumsy putdown at the start of your post by the time you type the end of your post...

[Guest]

Non-stick pans

Bruno wrote:

When I saw a thread about non-stick pans, I thought to myself, now here is some inflammable OTF shit. There's never going to be agreement on that! It's like nitroglycerin.

My fault, I'll totally admit to it. I just can't resist poking Toro (the Sarah Palin of OTF) with a stick. Besides, pans are a ... hot topic!

[Brandenburger Toro]

Non-stick pans

Sheesh.

The point is not that ceramic knives add extra sharpness (which some may, no doubt), but that they stay sharp much longer.

Yes, which is moot in a professional context where they are anyway regularly sharpened, like I said.

Yeah, I had to scan your post really closely to discern the 'clown' insult hidden like a Straussian subtext between the lines. You really must be frothing at the mouth when you type your angry posts on OTF, given that apparently you forget one clumsy putdown at the start of your post by the time you type the end of your post...

FFS. My point was not "nobody must ever bandy insults", it was that in your urge to do so you had completely misread my point. Now you've done it again.

Why am I even indulging you? You are after all such an attention-seeking, posturing absurdity as to insist on writing "G-d" as part of your "Moishe" persona despite the fact that, by your own admission, you are "neither Israeli nor Jewish".

I never sent that "leave the board" PM, and have no intention of doing so. But do you care to guess at how many others asked me to?

[Guest]

Non-stick pans

Abu Al Torotoro wrote:

I never sent that "leave the board" PM, and have no intention of doing so.

Then try keeping your mouth shut for once? Oh, wait...

But do you care to guess at how many others asked me to?

Ah, the last refuge of the scoundrel, alluding to the many people who are on your side (and wish to see me gone) privately, but dare not speak up. Keep fightin', brotha!

[Wyatt Earp]

Non-stick pans

Moishe X wrote:

Do you even read any appropriate publications?

Readers' Knives?

[Guest]

Non-stick pans

Wa ayat al Urbi wrote:

Moishe X wrote:

Do you even read any appropriate publications?

Reader's Knives?

Well I guess this wins the thread by a wide margin. Please accept this video as a token of my appreciation.

[Brandenburger Toro]

Non-stick pans

I don't wish to see you gone, I wish you to stop being such an affected fuckwit.