Anti-Semitism - Jacobson in The Independent

[evilC]

It may have already been mentioned on another thread, but I thought I'd mention it, in case it hasn't.

"Let's see the 'criticism' of Israel for what it really is"

I'm not adding a comment, as I've not fully read it yet ...and I probably wouldn't do so at the start of such a thread, anyway.

[Guest]

Anti-Semitism - Jacobson in The Independent

Jacobson has a lot of form for this sort of stuff -- he's been defending the IDF's actions for years.

[Wyatt Earp]

Anti-Semitism - Jacobson in The Independent

Given the number of besieged and battered cities there have been in however many thousands of years of pitiless warfare there is only one explanation for this invocation of Warsaw before any of those – it is to wound Jews in their recent and most anguished history and to punish them with their own grief. Its aim is a sort of retrospective retribution, cancelling out all debts of guilt and sorrow. It is as though, by a reversal of the usual laws of cause and effect, Jewish actions of today prove that Jews had it coming to them yesterday.

I think he's dead wrong about this, and that being wrong about this has disastrous consequences. The eagerness to compare Israel to the Nazis has, as I've argued before, more to do with what I've called "lazy irony" than with racism--in most cases, anyway; I'm not inclined to defend Richard Ingrams from that charge.

But I absolutely understand why Jacobson thinks it, and people who use this Nazi analogy ought to be aware of the fires they're stoking.

[Wyatt Earp]

Anti-Semitism - Jacobson in The Independent

The first comment on the blog, the "with a name like that" comment; that was made by an anti-Semite. I assume none of us would dispute that.

[Guest]

Anti-Semitism - Jacobson in The Independent

It's a completely absurd comment too, because "Jacobson" is at least as much a northern European name (Jacobsen, Jakobsson etc) as it is a Jewish one.

Fintan O'Toole had a piece about this in the Irish Times recently. I'd imagine that Howard Jacobson wouldn't enjoy reading it.

[Wyatt Earp]

Anti-Semitism - Jacobson in The Independent

vennegoor strokes wrote:

It's a completely absurd comment too, because "Jacobson" is at least as much a northern European name (Jacobsen, Jakobsson etc) as it is a Jewish one.

With respect, I don't think that's the reason why it's absurd.

[Guest]

Anti-Semitism - Jacobson in The Independent

I said "too", i.e. in addition to it being anti-Semitic.

[Spearmint Rhino]

Anti-Semitism - Jacobson in The Independent

Howard Jacobson's been banging this drum for as long as I can remember. He's scum. Melanie Phillips with a beard.

[Guest]

Anti-Semitism - Jacobson in The Independent

Wa ayat al Urbi wrote:

I absolutely understand why Jacobson thinks it, and people who use this Nazi analogy ought to be aware of the fires they're stoking.

I don't think we should pause for a second to consider the feelings of people who churn out lunatic/dishonest claptrap like "It is as though, by a reversal of the usual laws of cause and effect, Jewish actions of today prove that Jews had it coming to them yesterday".

[nefertiti]

Anti-Semitism - Jacobson in The Independent

Deviate a fraction of a moral millimetre from the prevailing orthodoxy and you are either not listened to or you are jeered at and abused,

Or as Spearmint Rhino

"He's scum..."

I bitterly disagree with Jacobson.. But Rhino's rhetoric is just as repulsive.

[Spearmint Rhino]

Anti-Semitism - Jacobson in The Independent

Tell you what, though. Without wishing to dignify the 'surname' dig from that commenter, and stopping some way short myself of saying "Scratch a Jew, find a Zionist"... I've personally been quite shocked during this current flare-up about how many people I know have taken sides along ethnic faultlines.

I mean, people who are totally sound on other political matters, people who know their right from wrong, falling in line with their 'team' this time because they happen to be Jewish. I mean, I've even got one friend - a really cool and smart girl - who went to the pro-Israel rally in Trafalgar Square, to my utter shock.

All of which makes me respect Alexei Sayle, spokesperson for Jews For Justice In Palestine, even more. (He's interviewed in the latest Word mag, and talks a lot of sense on this subject. Asked whether JFJIP has many members, he wearily replies "What do you think?")

[Spearmint Rhino]

Anti-Semitism - Jacobson in The Independent

nefertiti wrote:

Deviate a fraction of a moral millimetre from the prevailing orthodoxy and you are either not listened to or you are jeered at and abused,

Or as Spearmint Rhino

"He's scum..."

I bitterly disagree with Jacobson.. But Rhino's rhetoric is just as repulsive.

Oh, come on.

[nefertiti]

Anti-Semitism - Jacobson in The Independent

Tell you what, though. Without wishing to dignify the 'surname' dig from that commenter, and stopping some way short myself of saying "Scratch a Jew, find a Zionist"... I've personally been quite shocked during this current flare-up about how many people I know have taken sides along ethnic faultlines.

Well that's a "some of my best friends" approach. Managing to say it and not say it at the same time. Great smearing, Rhino.

How far short of saying "Scratch a Jew, find a Zionist".. do you stop, exactly?

[Spearmint Rhino]

Anti-Semitism - Jacobson in The Independent

nefertiti wrote:

Tell you what, though. Without wishing to dignify the 'surname' dig from that commenter, and stopping some way short myself of saying "Scratch a Jew, find a Zionist"... I've personally been quite shocked during this current flare-up about how many people I know have taken sides along ethnic faultlines.

Well that's a "some of my best friends" approach. Managing to say it and not say it at the same time. Great smearing, Rhino.

How far short of saying "Scratch a Jew, find a Zionist".. do you stop, exactly?

As you'll see from my use of the words 'myself', 'personally' and 'friend', the anecdotal nature of my post is acknowledged within itself.

And, as for how far I short I stop, see my third paragraph. It's a shame that the campaign consists mainly of a handful of media luvvies at the moment, but there you have it.

[Lucy Waterman]

Anti-Semitism - Jacobson in The Independent

Given the number of besieged and battered cities there have been in however many thousands of years of pitiless warfare there is only one explanation for this invocation of Warsaw before any of those – it is to wound Jews in their recent and most anguished history and to punish them with their own grief.

This is pretty unarguable.

Its aim is a sort of retrospective retribution, cancelling out all debts of guilt and sorrow. It is as though, by a reversal of the usual laws of cause and effect, Jewish actions of today prove that Jews had it coming to them yesterday.

That doesn't follow at all.

[Spearmint Rhino]

Anti-Semitism - Jacobson in The Independent

Lucy Waterman wrote:

Given the number of besieged and battered cities there have been in however many thousands of years of pitiless warfare there is only one explanation for this invocation of Warsaw before any of those – it is to wound Jews in their recent and most anguished history and to punish them with their own grief.

This is pretty unarguable.

I'll fucking argue it. "It is to shake Jews' consciences awake by giving them a comparison they can vividly comprehend." There's a case to be made there. (I mean, personally I tend to avoid rhetorically comparing Israel's actions with those of Nazi Germany, primarily because, as Taylor once brilliantly put it, "it just isn't worth it". But if other people do wanna play with that fire, this would be their logic.)

[Guest]

Anti-Semitism - Jacobson in The Independent

It's also a comparison to an event the memory of which is, sadly, often abused by those who seek to justify Israel's crimes.

[Lucy Waterman]

Anti-Semitism - Jacobson in The Independent

What you're saying surely amounts to the same thing. It's "vivid" because it "wounds" them.

[Spearmint Rhino]

Anti-Semitism - Jacobson in The Independent

Lucy Waterman wrote:

What you're saying surely amounts to the same thing. It's "vivid" because it "wounds" them.

Perhaps, but it's the "punish" part that's the real bone of contention.

[Wyatt Earp]

Anti-Semitism - Jacobson in The Independent

The Horse wrote:

Wa ayat al Urbi wrote:

I absolutely understand why Jacobson thinks it, and people who use this Nazi analogy ought to be aware of the fires they're stoking.

I don't think we should pause for a second to consider the feelings of people who churn out lunatic/dishonest claptrap like "It is as though, by a reversal of the usual laws of cause and effect, Jewish actions of today prove that Jews had it coming to them yesterday".

I agree that it's claptrap, but I doubt very much it's dishonest, and without wanting to get all toro on your ass, it fits no reasonable definition of "lunatic" either. It's born of an oversensitivity that's surely easily explained.

There's a lot of Jewish activity on the other side, though, I have to disagree with SR's anecdotes there. I know one of the speakers at this event, Yishay Mor, slightly through work. He seems a very sound sort.

[Wyatt Earp]

Anti-Semitism - Jacobson in The Independent

Spearmint Rhino wrote:

But if other people do wanna play with that fire, this would be their logic.

I think it's shit logic. Though I agree it's not necessarily anit-Semitic logic.

[Spearmint Rhino]

Anti-Semitism - Jacobson in The Independent

Wa ayat al Urbi wrote:

There's a lot of Jewish activity on the other side, though, I have to disagree with SR's anecdotes there. I know one of the speakers at this event, Yishay Mor, slightly through work. He seems a very sound sort.

Well, y'know, this is what I wanna be hearing about. Because the alternative is enough to kill my faith in human nature entirely.

[nefertiti]

Anti-Semitism - Jacobson in The Independent

But it's scarcely surprising that there will be divided loyalties. Most Jews in Britain will have relatives in Israel, and most will also have had relatives who died in camps. Jews are sensitive to perceived anti-semitism and will respond to at least some of the arguments that Jacobson propounds.

For example the use of "Stop the Holocaust in Gaza" as a slogan is clearly provocative-and in my view clearly inappropriate.

There are many more than a handful actively opposing the current behaviour of the Israeli State.

There are currently 1520 signatories to the Jews for Justice for Palestinians statement More than a handful. There are a number of other positions take by Jews in the diaspora which are strongly opposed to the current actions in Gaza, from out and out anti-Zionism to supporting the two state solution.

This is what the Reform Synagogues say

And this is what Independent Jewish Voicesanother campaign group, reckon are the opinions held amongst the various Jewish communities in Britain.

[Guest]

Anti-Semitism - Jacobson in The Independent

Wa ayat al Urbi wrote:

I agree that it's claptrap, but I doubt very much it's dishonest, and without wanting to get all toro on your ass, it fits no reasonable definition of "lunatic" either. It's born of an oversensitivity that's surely easily explained.

The statement itself isn't easily explained at all - it arrives from nowhere with no logic behind it. Replace lunatic with irrational, idiotic, random, stupid or whatever else if you must. I added the possibility of dishonesty to be kind to Jacobson by introducing the idea that he isn't as frighteningly thick as this passage indicates, and is merely scum.

[Guest]

Anti-Semitism - Jacobson in The Independent

It's born of an oversensitivity that's surely easily explained.

I would argue that Jacobson's motives in this particular instance have more to do with changing the subject, and getting the discussion shifted away from the behaviour of the Israeli state.