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    Having kids

    I'm beginning to lose the feeling that I need or want to have kids. Ever since I got together with senhora stev9e, it's something that we've talked about and I've been eager to do but all of a sudden that eagerness seems to be disappearing.

    I suppose the main reason why I'm losing the desire is due to my own doubts about being a good father. My own father cared far more about spending time in the pub than with his son. This, together with the time we spent apart when he moved from Liverpool to London to find work in the early eighties and the long periods of hospitalization in the later part of that decade, mean I can count the great times I spent with him on the fingers of one hand.

    Other factors involved in my thinking are far more irrational. Unlike most teachers in my place of work, I enjoy teaching teenage classes, I like the way that if you're clear, direct, reasonable and well organised, even the worst of unruly adolescents will respect you. However, I was recently forced to substitute a class of 7 year olds and it became clear to me within a matter of minutes that I had not a single idea of how their minds worked and within 10 minutes that classroom was in chaos. I had no idea of how to control a group of 7 year olds and this shocked me a bit.

    The other irrational factor involved in this is that we took a 3 week old kitten off of a colleague of mine who had found her on the street close to death. We've nurtured her back to health and she's now 6 months old, in heat and permanently acting nuts. But in all honesty, I don't like her that much, she doesn't behave the way I want her to and I find her a general annoyance in my day to day life, even though I make sure she's fed, her litter tray is clean and she can't bare to be without me (she screams when I leave the house). Having the cat has got me thinking, what if this was my kid and s/he didn't turn out how I think my kid should turn out? Would I have the same feelings?

    This all probably sounds pretty stupid but they're factors that have really changed my feelings recently. Alongside this, I'm weighed down by the thoughts that does the world really need more kids? And who is happier because of the introduction of a stev9e junior to this world, me or my mother who keeps on asking when a grandchild will be arriving? Add to this the fact that I argue at least once a day with my girlfriend and I couldn't bare for a child to be exposed to seeing their parents arguing each day, I had it as a child and hated it.

    Apologies if this post makes me seem a bit weird but these thoughts have been taking a strange priority in my head over the last couple of weeks and this is usually one of the better places to air such things.

    #2
    Having kids

    The "what the world needs" argument is pretty complex (if you don't have kids, it'll be my kids paying for your pension, for example). I reckon bracket that one out, and try to concentrate on how you yourself really feel about it. Is the stuff about being a bad dad a genuine fear, or just cold feet? That's the main issue, I reckon.

    I don't think you can deduce much from your feelings about cats, by the way. At least I hope you can't; cats annoy me too.

    Comment


      #3
      Having kids

      Wa ayat al Urbi wrote:
      The "what the world needs" argument is pretty complex (if you don't have kids, it'll be my kids paying for your pension, for example)
      Alternatively, it could be any of a multitude of emigrant workers boosting struggling western economies.

      Which might well be Wyatt's kids if we all take Mandelson's advice and get on our bikes to Lisboa...

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        #4
        Having kids

        Steve, I can't say conclusively, but your self-awareness and the time you've spent thinking if you would be a good dad is probably a lot more self-analyzing that most bad fathers have ever done in their lives, so by thinking about this I think you've shown some of the intelligence and emotional stability that good dads need.

        Not saying that automatically means you should have a kid, but I don't think you would be some neglectful monster.

        My biggest fear about myself when I learned that I was going to be a dad was that I simply didn't know how to interact with a child--I'm an only child, I've always been kind of introverted, and while other people seem to be able to naturally interact with babies and little kids, I was just uncomfortable around them. I'm nothing like that with my daughter, thankfully, but I find that I'm kind of still like that with other people's kids, but less so.

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          #5
          Having kids

          However, I was recently forced to substitute a class of 7 year olds and it became clear to me within a matter of minutes that I had not a single idea of how their minds worked and within 10 minutes that classroom was in chaos. I had no idea of how to control a group of 7 year olds and this shocked me a bit.

          I had exactly this experience teaching English after-school classes in Madrid. I realized how bad it had been when the only phrases they seemed to have picked up from me were 'shut up a minute/sit down/be quiet' etc

          I sometimes get slightly incredulous 'no kids?' questions, but when it boils down to it a) you're not weird if you have no kids, and b) there are plenty of both 'self-interested' and non-selfish reasons not to have any

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            #6
            Having kids

            Inca's first two paragraphs do a much better job of summarizing my basic reaction to Steveeeee's post than I was able to come up with on my own.

            This is an intensely personal subject, and there is no way that I know steveeeee well enough to seriously offer advice, but I will offer some general observations.

            1) Everyone I know who has decided that they "were ready" to have children has repeatedly found themselves unprepared for at least something (and sometimes virtually everything). It just comes with the territory. And yet, virtually all of them are very, very glad that they had kids.

            2) You'll have a better sense of how to deal with 7 year olds when you have one (though you will also find that your previously successful tactics for 6 year olds won't work, see 1 above.)

            3) It's really important that both parents be supportive (of the idea, each other, and the child). Expecting that you will always be on the same page is a pipe dream, but having radically different ideas, fears or expectations can be really difficult for everyone.

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              #7
              Having kids

              4) Bruno is also dead on here.

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                #8
                Having kids

                Not that it will help you decide whether to become a parent, but I think being a parent teaches you far more about yourself than you ever thought possible. It teaches you to reflect a lot more, and perhaps be a more sensitive and reflective person. Or, it serves to illustrate what a sensitive and reflective person you're not.

                Either way, I begrudge people who have kids and neglect them far more than I would people who've made a sober and adult decision to not have children they're not 100% sure they'd want.

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                  #9
                  Having kids

                  You probably won't see life quite the same way afterwards.
                  Hmmm. Good thing, or bad thing?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Having kids

                    steveeeee, I am no expert but -

                    Your view of your on childhood and the care with which you are making your decision based on it is already a good sign. As has been pointed out, a fair few people don't even put this much thought into it.

                    Don't worry about the class of 7 year olds. You would only have one or two and there is a difference between having from birth to get used to them and jumping in the deep end at 7.

                    I would say that the main issue you may need to tihnk about is you and your partner arguing every day. You would need to sort out what the issue is there as a kid arriving isn't going to make it any better.

                    I wouldn't worry about the cat. I dislike cats and have a suspicion that they smear their arses on the kitchen table when you are asleep. I love kids and you always are fairly sure that they are in bed at night and nowhere near the kitchen table

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                      #11
                      Having kids

                      On the other hand, I don't think we agonised all that much, apart from "Can we afford it?", and I think we're OK parents as parents go, and certainly unregretful ones. There are few rules, I suspect, apart from "Love them as much as possible while realising the full extent of their separateness".

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                        #12
                        Having kids

                        Sultan of Bruno wrote:
                        But mostly, it's like being head over heels in love.
                        As the missus said when our son was little, "It's like falling in love with someone who can't wipe his own arse." I still laugh my head off at that one.

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                          #13
                          Having kids

                          Thanks for the many great replies.

                          With regards to the cat, it is a stupid aspect of my doubt but before getting the cat I was sure my life would be more fulfilled with one, that I would enjoy every day she runs around the house and does catty type things. But I don't, I just put up with her and laugh at her every now and again when she falls off something.

                          With the 7 year olds, what scares me is that I started off on the wrong foot and couldn't recover myself. I'd really hate that to happen with my own child.

                          I really identify with what Felicity says regarding the, "why don't you have children?" questions. If a couple is over 40 and has been together for over a decade or so, it's going to be thought of as either slightly strange or something deserving your sympathy if they don't have a child. There seems such a pressure to have a child to demonstrate to the world that you are couple, you are in love and you can reproduce.

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                            #14
                            Having kids

                            Sultan of Bruno wrote:
                            We saved money by doing cloth diapers. It's not a huge addition to the food bill.
                            To the what?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Having kids

                              Sultan of Bruno wrote:
                              I had, I thought, undying love for our cat before we procreated.
                              You and your cat did what?

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                                #16
                                Having kids

                                But seriously folks: yeah, our cat was instantly on the bottom rung of the ladder once the first kid arrived. Quite put out, he was.

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                                  #17
                                  Having kids

                                  My own father cared far more about spending time in the pub than with his
                                  My daughters could probably throw that accusation at me. And it would be undoubtedly true. But they know I love them, and - if push came to shove, and we all ended up on the Jeremy Kyle show - they love it there, too. Being with me, and doing their Charlie and Lola puzzle magazines. While I watch the football.

                                  I hope so, anyway. Being a parent isn't as simple as pretending you're Tom out of the Good Life. Who didn't even have kids, posterity needs to add.

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                                    #18
                                    Having kids

                                    As the missus said when our son was little, "It's like falling in love with someone who can't wipe his own arse." I still laugh my head off at that one.
                                    I've also heard it's like being the designated driver for a group of short people who are tripping their asses off.

                                    For me, relating to kids is the part that I think I'd find the easiest. It's the technical details, organizational demands and the financial issues that would scare me shitless. Keeping track of who naps when and who goes to soccer when and changing diapers and all of that.

                                    I find it exhausting to spend just a few days with my niece and nephew. Not physically exhausting really, but mentally taxing because I feel like I have to be paying very close attention to what they're doing at every moment lest they somehow manage to hurt themselves or I fail to keep them entertained. When my nephew asks me for the sixth time if Spider-man is stronger than Hawkgirl, I need to be ready with a good answer, lest he think I don't care or I discourage his curiosity. With my propensity for anxiety and depression, I don't know if I could manage that kind of sustained focus.

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                                      #19
                                      Having kids

                                      I try to go in that direction sometimes, but that just yields more questions. My point is that it's hard to keep up sometimes.

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                                        #20
                                        Having kids

                                        As the missus said when our son was little, "It's like falling in love with someone who can't wipe his own arse."
                                        She meant your son, right?

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Having kids

                                          QUOTE:
                                          My own father cared far more about spending time in the pub than with his

                                          My daughters could probably throw that accusation at me. And it would be undoubtedly true. But they know I love them, and - if push came to shove, and we all ended up on the Jeremy Kyle show - they love it there, too. Being with me, and doing their Charlie and Lola puzzle magazines. While I watch the football.
                                          Good for you. All this bollocks last week about kids not drinking in the their teenage years.

                                          Seriously, if you take your kids to the pub for a bit of bonding time then, fine (as long as you aren't expecting them to stand their round)

                                          I expect all of us spend more time with our kids than our fathers did (not that it was their fault, like) and whichever way that comes is good - going to football, taking them to gigs, playground, skate park etc.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Having kids

                                            Sultan of Bruno wrote:
                                            Wa ayat al Urbi wrote:
                                            Sultan of Bruno wrote:
                                            We saved money by doing cloth diapers. It's not a huge addition to the food bill.
                                            To the what?
                                            Haha!

                                            Er, the 'it' would be 'having a kid' not 'diapers'. Sorry for the apparent non sequitur.
                                            Maybe you could buy this new brand of Pampers (SNL commercial).

                                            Seriously, if you take your kids to the pub for a bit of bonding time then, fine (as long as you aren't expecting them to stand their round)
                                            Now there's a difference between our countries--here, if you took a kid to a bar with you, you would likely be arrested.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Having kids

                                              I had no idea of how to control a group of 7 year olds and this shocked me a bit.

                                              You yell "FREEZE!" in a loud voice.

                                              Seven year-olds need pretty explicit direction most of the time, without it they'll run riot.

                                              I can't add much to the great advice from everyone else. Except — and I'm sort of reliving this with my Grandson — it's just jaw-droppingly wonderful to spend so much time with the love and potential your own child represents. Sometimes it gets forgotten among the diapers, the racing to soccer games and the arguments over chores but it's always there. Yes, kids are the biggest responsibility most of us will ever take on but they're also resilient little buggers. You're allowed to make mistakes and they'll always forgive you, sometimes when they shouldn't. So cut yourself some slack, you'll be a fine Dad.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Having kids

                                                If you can have them and want them then kids are great. They are a daily reminder that you are not perfect, which is no bad thing.

                                                My three have vastly different personalities and can, of course, be infuriating. But there are more than enough moments to remind you of how lucky you have been to borrow them for the first 20 years or so of their lives.

                                                Mind you, I very much doubt the 19-year-old will ever leave home. Nineteen-year-old. Fuck me, it doesn't seem a week since he was puking all over me, oh hang on, it was a week ago.

                                                That's a lie actually. He drinks far less than I did at his age. Youth of today eh?

                                                Nobody can be the perfect parent, so don't set the bar too high for yourself. Just do your best and try to be there when they need you.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Having kids

                                                  If it makes any difference, Steveeeee, I hated teaching kids whenever I was asked to do it back in the day, and probably had very much the same experience you did. That experience and the experience of having children are completely and utterly unrecognisable from each other.

                                                  I actually think you can overthink it. I mean yes it's a big decision and all that, and it will, as everyone has said, make your life entirely different, but ultimately if it happens all the logistical and financial concerns will sort themselves out (just as one manages to muddle oneself through life somehow, the addition of a child just means you do the same but with slightly different priorities)

                                                  And if you decide you don;t really want children, then you don't have them, and fuck what anybody else thinks about that.

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