Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What little faith you may have had in the system..

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    What little faith you may have had in the system..

    Will all but evaporate once you read this

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/dec/12/de-menezes-dramatic-scenes

    Extraordinary scenes end Jean Charles de Menezes inquest• Gagging order on media after family tried to burst into court
    • Stand-off as media and public refused to clear courtroom
    • Coroner denied jury unlawful killing optionSandra Laville, crime correspondent guardian.co.uk, Friday 12 December 2008 12.54 GMT Article history
    Family and friends of Jean Charles de Menezes stage a protest outside the inquest. Photograph: Akira Suemori/AP

    The moment the family of Jean Charles de Menezes attempted to force their way past a group of private security guards into the inquest courtroom marked the lowest point in a multi-million pound hearing into the fatal shooting of an innocent man by the Metropolitan police.

    Any semblance of trust between the relatives and the establishment, in the person of the coroner and the court, dissolved into a volley of recriminations and accusations after Sir Michael Wright made a series of decisions that made the family question the openness and impartiality of proceedings.

    The dramatic scenes, which can only now be reported after the lifting of a media gagging order imposed by Wright, came on December 5, one hour before jurors were sent out to begin their deliberations on a verdict.

    After two IPCC investigations into the shooting of the innocent Brazilian man and a crown court trial, the hopes of the family were high that the inquest, held in the surroundings of the Oval cricket ground amid much publicity, would establish the facts of the fatal shooting and come to a verdict that accurately represented the events of the day.

    What they wanted, the relatives said, was some sort of accountability. What they believe they were given was a slanted inquiry, held back by the restrictions on the verdict imposed by the coroner. They believe he forced the jury into a corner, withdrawing any freedom to return a critical narrative on the shooting or to find unlawful killing - either on the grounds that an individual or individuals had committed murder or manslaughter.

    These decisions began a week of escalating tension that exploded into open hostility between the family and the court and resulted in the relatives withdrawing their legal team and their cooperation.

    "It is increasingly clear in the last week that the coroner's impartiality has simply disappeared," said Jasmin Khan of the Justice4Jean campaign. "That is one of the reasons why the family felt they had no choice but to withdraw their cooperation."

    The relatives had hoped the jury would be told of their decision to withdraw before they retired to consider their verdicts, but the barristers for the police and the coroner agreed that only the blandest of statements about the absence of the family's legal team could be given to the jury.

    "The less said the better," said Richard Horwell QC, representing the commissioner of the Met.

    The coroner had earlier ordered the public and the media to leave the courtroom while he completed his summing up to the jury last week, giving no reason except to say he had reached a "sensitive" point in the hearing.

    When the public refused amid repeated requests for clarification of his ruling, there was a standoff for an hour and 40 minutes. The public refused to leave and the coroner refused to return to court.

    At one point the team of bouncers with walkie-talkie microphones on their shirt cuffs who had been hired to provide security at the inquest were seen huddling in a corner. "We can't use violence, that's clear," one was overheard saying.

    Eventually the coroner's orders were upheld and the public, including supporters of the family, left the court.

    The relatives were held back by security guards and kept out of the courtroom while barristers, police and the coroner filed in. Having lost all faith that those inside would honour the principle that "justice should not only be done, but should manifestly and undoubtedly be seen to be done", they attempted to storm into the courtroom.

    Today, although the hearing is over and the verdict delivered, the accusations, bitterness and recriminations continue from those who believe that the inquest was never an open, impartial examination of the facts.

    #2
    What little faith you may have had in the system..

    Bloody hell.

    Private Eye do a very god pisstake on this, in the tradition of Peter's Cook's judge routine; "And now I shall ask you to retire and consider your verdict of Not Guilty", etc.

    Comment


      #3
      What little faith you may have had in the system..

      Private Eye do a very god pisstake on this, in the tradition of Peter's Cook's judge routine; "And now I shall ask you to retire and consider your verdict of Not Guilty", etc.

      I can see them doing a special supplement, a la the NHS IT debacle, on this situation. Jesus, what a mess.

      Comment


        #4
        What little faith you may have had in the system..

        As it happens, Ian Hislop is on Simon Mayo's show this afternoon.

        So the police are so sorry they accidentally shot De Menezes. As I said on the old thread, I can just about accept that people can make mistakes (although the police's handling of the whole episode seemed to have been disorganised and institutionally flawed).

        What still unnerves me most about what happened was how both the police and the media were allowed to brandish all sorts of allegations about De Menezes - he was an illegal, he was a drug addict, he was running away, he was wearing a big coat etc - and then feel no need, or indeed seem to be put under any pressure, to apologise or explain their accusations.

        The whole affair disgusts me. The poor man and his family have been swept away under the carpet, and the system has stretched this out and used time as a weapon to diffuse the situation.

        If this verdict had been reached a few days after his death there would have been rioting on the streets.

        Comment


          #5
          What little faith you may have had in the system..

          Fucking hell.

          Let me see if I've got this straight. The coroner refused to allow the jury at a public enquiry into an apparently unlawful killing to return a verdict of unlawful killing for reasons which could not be made public, yet fully accepts the total innocence of the victim?

          This is beyond baffling.

          Comment


            #6
            What little faith you may have had in the system..

            Utterly shameful.

            This is but one example (a pretty extreme example - I wish I could say unique but there have been other cases where the death of innocent people have resulted) of the horribly prevalent attitude amongst the police and those who should have control over the police, that the police have the right to judge and pass sentence. This blurring of the executive and judiciary roles must be resisted and reversed - right down to the so-superficially-tempting use of on-the-spot fines. The police simply do not have the competence to act as judges in any matter.

            Comment


              #7
              What little faith you may have had in the system..

              What a fucking country.

              Comment


                #8
                What little faith you may have had in the system..

                Aren't you a little bit proud too, though - of the jury, at least?

                Comment


                  #9
                  What little faith you may have had in the system..

                  For what it's worth, the BBC interactive guide to what happened gives by far the most detailed and useful account I've found of what happened. It raises as many serious questions as it answers, perhaps unsurprisingly.

                  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/629/629/7073125.stm

                  Comment


                    #10
                    What little faith you may have had in the system..

                    Comment


                      #11
                      What little faith you may have had in the system..

                      "The less said the better," said Richard Horwell QC, representing the commissioner of the Met.

                      Brilliant. Absolutely fucking brilliant. Forget "Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense" "The Less Said the Better" should be instantly adopted as the British national motto.

                      Aren't you a little bit proud too, though - of the jury, at least?

                      Yes, but I'd have been a good deal prouder if they'd dragged Sir Michael Wright into the street and poured tar and feathers over his wig.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        What little faith you may have had in the system..

                        We should all have been doing that.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          What little faith you may have had in the system..

                          i am absolutely proud of the jury. As for the protectionism so clearly at work here, it's hard not to think of, I don't know, freemasonry in full effect. The roughshod tactics of the judge and defence beggar belief. You can only hope that there is real anger and outcry at this verdict but suspect that somehow all of that energy will be successfully dissipated. I hope not. Unbelievably brazen fuckers.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            What little faith you may have had in the system..

                            The thing is, the public will not think for one second that this was anything other than a shameful miscarriage of justice. If the police had just put their hands up at the time (or even nearer the time, when anti-terror, er, terror still held some currency) and admitted they fucked up spectacularly in a tricky situation, they'd hace saved a lot of face.

                            The BBC chronology Derek links to really does hit that home. For one thing, it's striking how little De Menezes resembled Hussein Osman (or anyone you'd expect to have that name). Coupled with the officer's comment at 9:43 - "Mongolian eyes"?! - you can't help but wonder how London's police force can be so profoundly ignorant despite living and working in such a diverse city.

                            It's weird seeing where it all happened, actually. I live a couple of hundred yards away from Scotia Road.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              What little faith you may have had in the system..

                              Absolutely - the ignorance is what I find appalling too. And now it appears that the officers in question, these trigger-happy incompetents, are to be returned to front line duty. Please, let there be a stink about this.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                What little faith you may have had in the system..

                                Indeed. Will there now be an upsurge in the sale of bulletproof vests?

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  What little faith you may have had in the system..

                                  Andy C, are you saying that, say, dropping litter should go to a magistrates' court and lead to a criminal record? I'd like to see the police have to film the offence so that it can be challenged in court but if someone's prepared to pay up then, that's OK with me.

                                  But it's certainly something to keep an eye on. I notice the Lib Dems proposed spot fines for attacks by drunks on A&E staff. What on earth is the rationale of this? This is assault.

                                  In terms of police powers, it's worth mentioning stop and search which is in operation at the moment. I don't like that but why is it different to random breath testing, which seems more acceptable to progressives?

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    What little faith you may have had in the system..

                                    Why all the jury love? They did what juries do. Am I missing something?

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      What little faith you may have had in the system..

                                      In terms of police powers, it's worth mentioning stop and search which is in operation at the moment. I don't like that but why is it different to random breath testing, which seems more acceptable to progressives?

                                      Because it's not the same thing. For one, random breath testing actually works really well and has the effect of making the roads much safer. You won't drive after a couple of pints if there is some chance that the police will stop you, therefore you won't become a drink-driver. It doesn't matter how many black or asian kids you stop and frisk, They just won't stop being so god-damn ethnic.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        What little faith you may have had in the system..

                                        Lucia Lanigan wrote:
                                        The thing is, the public will not think for one second that this was anything other than a shameful miscarriage of justice.
                                        I wish that were true, but I've already heard "he was an illegal immigrant, he wasn't even supposed to be in this country" and "he shouldn't have run when they challenged him", since the verdict came out. Unless you're interested enough to have followed the case, you're more likely than not to still have the view of the initial rumours and lies spread when De Menezes was first killed.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          What little faith you may have had in the system..

                                          AITL, I don't follow you at all. Are you saying that "it works" is sufficient justification for something? If so, then I don't find it that implausible that searching for knives "might work". I'm just very uncomfortable with anything not based on suspicion. Even if ethnic monitoring stats are kept and all that.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            What little faith you may have had in the system..

                                            "Indeed. Will there now be an upsurge in the sale of bulletproof vests?"

                                            He was shot in the head.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              What little faith you may have had in the system..

                                              With seven shots. A good number missed. With a hit rate like that from point blank range, it might be worth wearing a bulletproof vest anyway.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                What little faith you may have had in the system..

                                                Why all the jury love? They did what juries do. Am I missing something?
                                                Indeed. I think it stems from the slightly pessimistic reflex view that many contemporary liberal-lefties have of 'the public' - encouraged by yer Gauntys and Clarksons - that they're a rabid unthinking mob, liable to pick on and disbelieve the De Menezes of this world.

                                                The jury system rocks. Defending it is incredibly important.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  What little faith you may have had in the system..

                                                  Andy C, are you saying that, say, dropping litter should go to a magistrates' court and lead to a criminal record?
                                                  My non-sequitur-o-meter's just burst. Why is the only alternative to Plod having the right to demand fines on his own whim a full magistrate's hearing?

                                                  Comment

                                                  Working...
                                                  X