Ireland's Nazis

[Spearmint Rhino]

Anyone see the documentary Ireland's Nazis, presented by a WW2 veteran called Cathal O'Shannon?

It's basically the story of the way in which Ireland provided a safe haven for several Nazi war criminals in the years after 1945. Including...

*Andriya Artukovic, the 'Himmler Of The Balkans', who as a senior member of Croatia's Nazi-affiliated Ustase party was responsible for overseeing the massacre of up to one million Jews, gypsies and other minorities. Artukovic changed his name and lived under an assumed name in a small town in Ireland for many years, going to church every Sunday (cue bog-brained murphies with eyebrows on their cheeks saying "He was very quiet, kept himself to himself" etc) before doing a runner to California. Officially the Irish government didn't know he was there, but O'Shannon asserts that Eamon De Valera insisted on the name-change so that if challenged he could 'honestly' say that Andriya Artukovic was not living in Ireland. There are also papers relating to the Artukovic affair that the Irish government is still refusing to release. Incidentally, his passage to Ireland was smoothed by a certain Father Krunoslav Draganovic, a Catholic priest who specialised in arranging for high-ranking Nazis to escape to safety.

Edit - the Catholic church loved the Ustase, you see, because they brought in the death penalty for abortion (for doctor and patient), and were tough on 'immorality' like drunkenness etc

*Celestin Laine, leader of the Bezen Perrot, a Breton nationalist militia who collaborated with the Nazis (to the extent of wearing SS uniforms and using their weapon) just so they could put one over on the French, and massacred 35 French schoolchildren. Fled to Ireland and lived there until his death.

*Pieter Menten, Dutch-born art collector who joined up with the SS, went to Poland, and wiped out an entire Jewish family against whom he had a personal grudge, before murdering other random Jews. Lived in a mansion in County Waterford for three decades befor being brought to justice.

All of this was going on at a time when Ireland was refusing to provide refuge for Jewish children who had survived the Holocaust. Government papers from the time reveal that it was official policy, containing racist warnings that Jews are undesirables who do not assimilate into the host country, etc etc.

Edit - oh yeah, the really shocking thing about the refugee children was that opposition politicians accused De Valera of planning to allow the Jewish kids in, and De Valera was forced to strenuously deny this slur on his character! A real sign of the times.

Fascinating stuff. And apparently there's another episode on the way.

[Brandenburger Toro]

Ireland's Nazis

Yeah, I had a dim awareness of some of this stuff - none is surprising. Limerick had an anti-Jewish pogrom in the 1950s. We were pretty shitty on all fronts concerning the war.

Still, even in Chris Morris-referencing jest, less of this, please;

bog-brained murphies

[Spearmint Rhino]

Ireland's Nazis

Fair enough.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Ireland's Nazis

I haven't seen it SR. Cathal O'Shannon is one of the good guys of Irish broadcasting. he is most famous for his brilliant interview with muhammed Ali back in the 70's. My parents knew him through the labour party back in the sixties and seventies.



(I know you can't see him but that's him) his dad was a pretty interesting character as well. I'm actually amazed that he is still alive. He was seriously ill a couple of years ago.

as for the nazis, we gave shelter to a guy called albert folens, who was a member of a rather unpleasant bunch called the flemish region. He then went on to found the largest irish educational publishers, folens.

The people that we gave shelter to seemed to come under a couple of categories. They were people who were involved in regionalist seperatist movements that signed up with the nazis. we provided shelter to Breton nationalists, flemish nationalists. I think a certain element of it went back to very confused sympathies dating back to the war of independence.

The IRA were almost completely broken by De Valera in the 30's, and when war broke out he interned almost anyone who was left. (Internment is easier to do properly when you know everyone you are interning personally.) The reason for this was that they were planning on carrying out a bombing campaign against england to assist their allies, er, the Nazi's. Their leader Sean Russell even has a statue in Fairview park. a couple of years ago, someone did a Bart simpson on it.

Sinn Fein still comemerorate this cunt. (though I'm not sure that they make as big a deal of it since the torrent of unfavourable publicity)

Our official attitude towards the jews was shameful. The jewish community in Dublin had about 4,000 people living in it, and a lot of them lived in portobello and Ranelagh. One of them, Ben Briscoe Snr had been a very active member of the IRA during the war of independence, and was a Fianna Fail TD and lord Mayor of dublin (as his son later became) in the late thirties he tried to get some of his relations from Germany into the country as refugees, but was refused, and this was when a Government TD could basically move mountains. There must have been some serious hardcore cunts in charge of refugee status.

I'm sorry I missed this programme. Where did you see it?

[Spearmint Rhino]

Ireland's Nazis

It must have been on BBC or Channel 4, cos I caught it on replay on my BT Digital thing.

That Ben Briscoe chap turns up in it, indeed.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Ireland's Nazis

Toro, the limerick pogrom was in 1904. It was as a result of a redemptorist priest going a little crazy in the missions. He should have stuck to the tried and tested topics of telling the people to stay away from masturbation, not refusing their husbands, the dangers of godless britain, how hell awaited those who didn't do exactly what the priest said, and the staple for fishing parishes "don't have sex with monkfish".

[Spearmint Rhino]

Ireland's Nazis

I do apologise, it turns out to be a History Channel programme that's just on BT Digital's long-term archive, and was probably first aired in 2007 so it isn't especially topical.

Ah well, maybe you'll be able to find it if you've got BT or any similar cable service.

Annoyingly, episode 2 isn't available. Hopefully it'll show up eventually.

[Wyatt Earp]

Ireland's Nazis

And I am the Life wrote:

... "don't have sex with monkfish".

Because they're celibate?

[Reed John]

Ireland's Nazis

I assumed it was the other way around - that they're called monkfish because they're the fish you're not supposed to have sex with.

[Wyatt Earp]

Ireland's Nazis

Ah, so all the others are OK. Is that just since Vatican 2?

[WOM]

Ireland's Nazis

Bless me father, for I have finned.

[Brandenburger Toro]

Ireland's Nazis

Apart from the Briscoes, there have been a fair few Lord Mayors of Dublin, a Lord Mayor of Cork, and a few (very) senior TDs. We may not have many of them, or treat them very well, but we certainly elect the shit out of those motherfuckers.

My bad on the 50s thing. I've made that mistake before, I think - I'm not sure what I'm mixing it up with.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Ireland's Nazis

There was one mad redemptorist who went around giving that speech. Apparently sexual dysfunction had reached such an unbelievable peak in the post famine period that well, you know..... Though frequently the Missioner wound up educating the people by berating them for sins that would never have occurred to them.

[anton pulisov]

Ireland's Nazis

We were pretty shitty on all fronts concerning the war.

I don't agree. Look at the other neutral countries. Sweden let Nazi troops transit through their land on their way to Norway. Switzerland stored loads of Nazi gold. Ireland, a nation of peasantry that had just come out of a civil war, passively supported the allies while keeping up a facade of neutrality. Many Irish fought in the British army, while others, including my grandfather, earned their bread working in war factories in England. There were a few loonies about (like in all countries at that time), yeah, but to say Ireland was shitty on all fronts is bordering on disrespectful.

De Valera's attitude to the war was pretty much spot on. Even with the benefit of hindsight, it's difficult to see why Ireland should have become actively involved in the war.

[Brandenburger Toro]

Ireland's Nazis

De Valera's attitude to the war was pretty much spot on.

He sent a fucking telegram of condolences on Hitler's death, FFS. He'd probably have gone to the fucking state funeral if there had been one.

Even with the benefit of hindsight, it's difficult to see why Ireland should have become actively involved in the war.

Because it was fought to prevent the expansion over the whole continent of a genocidal dictatorship?

Just a thought.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Ireland's Nazis

when you are neutral you are supposed to send telegrams of condolence to the embassy when a head of state dies. It's a matter of protocol.

It is also worth noting that at no point did germany openly threaten to invade Ireland, unlike say.... the prime minister of england, or the american ambassador. Given that we provided 250,000 people to either fight for england or work in england's factories, (not counting the number of Irish people in situ in England) provided weather information, overflight privileges, and allowed all downed allied airmen to 'escape'.....

Ireland's actual involvement in the war would have closed the north atlantic gap a little bit, an advantage that was superceded by 1943, it would have provided a naval base in cobh that would have been of limited use at best, and given the parlous state of the Irish armed forces would have had to be actively defended at a time when the allied forces weren't actually that thick on the ground.

The other thing that you have to remember is that most people wanted to be officially neutral. It was a huge thing for Irish people at the time.

[anton pulisov]

Ireland's Nazis

He sent a fucking telegram of condolences on Hitler's death, FFS. He'd probably have gone to the fucking state funeral if there had been one.

Dev followed the neutrality protocol right up to the end, because he was fucked in the head. But he was right to keep out of the war.

Because it was fought to prevent the expansion over the whole continent of a genocidal dictatorship?

Just a thought.

It was fought as a war between large imperial powers, like all major wars before it. The smaller countries were pawns that only joined in once they were attacked or about to be attacked. If the Netherlands or Poland had been islands in the Atlantic they'd have kept well out of it as well. Especially if they had just come out of colonialism, civil war and a century of mass emigration.

I don't see what Ireland would have contributed to the war as an active partner in the allied effort, that wasn't already contributed through the general behind-the-scenes favouring of the allied side. There was practically no army, navy or air force to speak of. The UK already had Belfast as a port in Ireland.

Put yourselves in Dev's shoes in 1939: Declare war on Nazi Germany and you're opening up Ireland as a potential bloody staging ground for a war between Britain and Germany to gain control of southern Irish ports.

Ireland followed exactly the same course as all other small countries: Try to stay neutral unless you get attacked. Ireland got lucky, other small countries didn't. And frankly, Ireland was due a bit of luck.

[Ray de Galles]

Ireland's Nazis

Wyatt Earp wrote:

And I am the Life wrote:

... "don't have sex with monkfish".

Because they're celibate?

I think you have them confused with halibut.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Ireland's Nazis

The other thing that you have to remember is that most people wanted to be officially neutral. It was a huge thing for Irish people at the time.

Edit: Bryantop's kind of nailed some of what I was saying)

I wonder how many of Ireland's people might have "wanted to remain neutral" had Hitler, at some point, reacted to the Battle of Britain defeat by opening up a new "Western Front" to attack Britain by land and sea from both sides (and if that possibility explains why so many Irish joined up to fight regardless of their government's stance).

Edit: the point still remaining, Ireland's "neutrality" didn't stop Hitler invading in any way at all. If he'd have wanted to invade Ireland he bloody well would have.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Ireland's Nazis

it's a difficult thing to explain I suppose. when Fianna Fail replaced Cumman na NGaedhal in 1932, our official policy was to define our independence by neutrality.

We were still only a 'Free State', not a republic, and neutrality was a very big thing for the Irish people. De Valera was twice head of the League of Nations and Ireland's foreign policy at the time was to be at the forefront of all the new nations formed after the break-up of the losing empires in WWI. Even after the war Frank Aitken spent most of his time in the UN being loudly neutral.

another aspect of it was that an essential part of the mindset was that we'll do what we want individually, but won't be forced to do anything. During the first world war, huge numbers of people signed up to fight, but there was a massive and successful resistance to conscription.

Relations between ireland and england had actually been improving before the war. In 1938 Ireland and england ended the economic war on terms that were very favourable to ireland. England gave back the treaty ports, (all that would have been useful to the allies in the second world war) and wrote off a substantial proportion of our international debt.

Chamberlain's approach to Ireland was very different to Churchill who basically just told the irish government that they had to line up with the allies. It is difficult to imagine how badly that went down.

So in short, the attitude was "yes we'll help you, yes huge numbers of us will work for you, fight for you and die for you, just like in all of your other wars. Just don't tell us what to do, and don't threaten to invade us. It really doesn't make us feel like you respect us, you cunt."

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Ireland's Nazis

Edit: the point still remaining, Ireland's "neutrality" didn't stop Hitler invading in any way at all. If he'd have wanted to invade Ireland he bloody well would have.

hmm, don't think for one minute that Irish people didn't know that the only thing preventing them from going the way of all the other small countries of europe was that we were an island on the correct side of england for once.

One thing that is important to remember is that at the start of the war the irish navy consisted of two small fisheries protection vessels. Even by the end of the war the Irish navy consisted of 6 motor torpedo boats and a mine layer.

Of course we knew that the only thing saving us was 400 miles and the royal navy. This might be part of the reason why so many people signed up to join the royal navy.

[E10 Rifle]

Ireland's Nazis

To illustrate the inevitable involvement of large number of Irish people in the Allied war effort, a mate of mine's grandad was, between the civil war and the end of the second world war, a member at various times of both the IRA and the British Army. Given the fluidity of migration and settlement between our two great nations, I doubt his story's that unusual.

[Purves Grundy]

Ireland's Nazis

Hang on, though. Presenting the fact that numerous individual Irish men and women contributed to the British war effort as though it reflects well on the Irish state at large is like making similar claims for Britain, vis-a-vis the Spanish Civil War, just because several Brits joined the International Brigades.

When all is said and done many, many brave individuals elected to up sticks and go to an arguably antagonistic country to take arms and wage war against a monstrous tyranny unsurpassed in the dark, lamentable catalogue of human crime. These people are heroes and I prostrate myself before them. But what was teh Irish government's contribution to their heroism? To use their principled courage as a means of excusing the contemptible, hiding-behind-mother's-skirts of the Irish government is, well, it's a bit shit. Not least because it does those heroes such a disservice.

And to try and excuse de Valera as doing no more than following diplomatic protocol, well, Joe Strummer put it best in White Man in Hammersmith Palais. Except there's no wriggle room on this one. It may have been a telegram rather than a limousine, but the fuckers sent it anyway.

[anton pulisov]

Ireland's Nazis

Edit: the point still remaining, Ireland's "neutrality" didn't stop Hitler invading in any way at all. If he'd have wanted to invade Ireland he bloody well would have.

If he had wanted to, yes. But he didn't want to, because there was no strategic interest in invading a neutral Ireland. Now, if Ireland had declared war on Germany (and it would have been the only small country in Europe to willingly do so) the port of Cork and Shannon airport would have been used for strategic operations, which would have made them important strategic targets, for aerial bombing at least.

[Reed John]

Ireland's Nazis

Surely Ireland would have been a good piece of real estate to conquer if you're trying to control the North Atlantic.

Did many Irishmen join the US army? It seems like that would have been as attractive an option as going to Britain since so many Irish people (all of them, it seems) have relatives in the USA.