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    International capitalism

    Before you lefties get too carried away with capitalism-bashing, even schadenfreude over the current travails of cross-border capitalists, mull over this.

    The last great financial crisis of 1929 and the great depression which followed from it and lasted for most of the 1930s led to WW2. You don't really have to struggle to mount a pretty strong case about the war-inducing nature of the following combination:

    - increased poverty making individuals more desperate and hence more likely to support extreme political parties;

    - economic isolation and reduced cross-border economic links reducing nation states' perception of their own economic interest in the maintainence of peace.

    The 1930s were, pretty much uniquely in the last 200 years, a period of reduction in economic liberalisation: national isolation, tariffs, hostility to free trade and falls in cross-border investment. Even WW1 didn't have as much impact on the massive 19th century globalisation of capitalism as the 1930s depression did.

    In the modern era of nuclear weapons, scarcity of vital resources such as oil and metal ores, the risk of war and the likely carnage caused by war are massively higher. So the importance of the sense of mutual dependence of nations' economies caused by cross-border investment, in reducing e.g. the extent of recent Russia-West or China-West tensions to way below what they would otherwise have been, is all the greater.

    Far from knocking capitalism, you really really ought to be praying for it with every fibre of your being. Because if it fails, nuclear holocaust won't be far behind.

    #2
    International capitalism

    Before you lefties get too carried away with capitalism-bashing

    Yes that's been happening a lot on here I've noticed.

    Comment


      #3
      International capitalism

      Lord Mauleverer wrote:
      The last great financial crisis of 1929 and the great depression which followed from it and lasted for most of the 1930s led to WW2.
      I'd've said that WW2 was largely the follow-up to the ending of WW1 and the Treaty Of Versailles.

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        #4
        International capitalism

        your post seems to working under the presumption that i'm not looking forward to the nuclear holocaust.

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          #5
          International capitalism

          I can't imagine anyone wasting a nuke on Chorley. I suppose the Americans might drop one on us by mistake.

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            #6
            International capitalism

            don't worry rogin, i'm sure there's enough supplies and shelter to last a lifetime under the big white church.

            (my band once played in coppull - you'd be forgiven for thinking the nuclear holocaust hadn't already happened)

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              #7
              International capitalism

              Typical freemarketeer logic: capitalism has got us into this mess, and only capitalism can get us out of it.

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                #8
                International capitalism

                SR, you've just expressed two propositions, either of which may or may not be correct. Regardless of whether or not either or both of them is correct, there is no causal relationship between those two propositions. They are in fact entirely independent of each other, in terms of their accuracy. Logic has absolutely nothing to do with it.

                Comment


                  #9
                  International capitalism

                  Glad to see the GCSE History evening class is going well Mauleverer, but I think you've missed the main point that those on the left are making. It isn't, in most cases, 'this is great!', it's 'This is what we said for years was bound to happen, you stupid bastards'.

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                    #10
                    International capitalism

                    So what? That's irrelevant to the point I'm making, which is that the most dangerous thing that could happen now, in terms of avoiding the carnage of war, is a reduction in the liberalisation of world trade and financial markets.

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                      #11
                      International capitalism

                      Well in that case I'd say that there's a titanium-strong argument for seperating out the two- world trade on the one hand and the operation of unregulated financial markets on the other. The latter have grown parasitic on the former, and are putting far more strain on international trade and cooperation than any of the ideas being patted about on the left of the political spectrum.

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                        #12
                        International capitalism

                        In any case, it's the capitalists themselves who ought to be scared. There's a lot of public anger bubbling up about this. A whiff of insurrection in the air for the first time in a while.

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                          #13
                          International capitalism

                          Lord Mauleverer wrote:
                          So what? That's irrelevant to the point I'm making, which is that the most dangerous thing that could happen now, in terms of avoiding the carnage of war, is a reduction in the liberalisation of world trade and financial markets.
                          Oh, so you are basically saying what I said you were saying. That didn't take long.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            International capitalism

                            Yes. I didn't imply that I wasn't saying exactly what you said I was saying. I just queried the relevance of "logic" to the combination of two independent and empirically testable propositions.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              International capitalism

                              Well done.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                International capitalism

                                Lord Mauleverer wrote:
                                I didn't imply that I wasn't saying exactly what you said I was saying.
                                is this still english?

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  International capitalism

                                  "Is this still English"?

                                  Yes, it is perfect English, without a single superfluous word.

                                  However, if long sentences and subordinate clauses are tricky for an OTF audiences, perhaps the following sentences will go down more easily.

                                  Capitalism is the best economic system.

                                  1000 years ago China was technologically way ahead of the west.

                                  Yet somehow the west got much richer.

                                  The West's economy grew vastly more than China's.

                                  The reasons are obvious.

                                  Adam Smith and others have pointed them out.

                                  Socialism is hopeless.

                                  It makes countries very poor.

                                  Just look at the standard of living in the USSR in the 1980s.

                                  Or Cuba now.

                                  Or North Korea.

                                  Great, socialism, isn't it?

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    International capitalism

                                    Lord Mauleverer wrote:
                                    "Is this still English"?

                                    Yes, it is perfect English, without a single superfluous word.

                                    However, if long sentences and subordinate clauses are tricky for an OTF audiences, perhaps the following sentences will go down more easily.

                                    Capitalism is the best economic system.

                                    1000 years ago China was technologically way ahead of the west.

                                    Yet somehow the west got much richer.

                                    The West's economy grew vastly more than China's.

                                    The reasons are obvious.

                                    Adam Smith and others have pointed them out.

                                    Socialism is hopeless.

                                    It makes countries very poor.

                                    Just look at the standard of living in the USSR in the 1980s.

                                    Or Cuba now.

                                    Or North Korea.

                                    Great, socialism, isn't it?
                                    Cuba has a higher standard of living than any comparable third-world Caribbean nation, despite the handicap of a trade blockade from its biggest neighbour, with higher literacy levels and better access to free medicine than the USA. You couldn't have chosen a worse example.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      International capitalism

                                      Can we not have plain, direct sentences expressing thoughts that aren't laughably simplistic?

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                                        #20
                                        International capitalism

                                        Good to know that, in desperate times, capitalism's cheerleaders are reverting back to full-on Eighties style "Get Back to Russia" mode. (see also Kenneth Clarke's 'Trabant' jibe nonsense on QT)

                                        Cos we all fucking love North Korea here. Each and every one of us.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          International capitalism

                                          E10 Rifle wrote:
                                          Good to know that, in desperate times, capitalism's cheerleaders are reverting back to full-on Eighties style "Get Back to Russia" mode. (see also Kenneth Clarke's 'Trabant' jibe nonsense on QT)

                                          Cos we all fucking love North Korea here. Each and every one of us.
                                          Indeed.

                                          I've taken to saying "If you think unregulated capitalism's so bloody great, go and live in Russia."

                                          Doesn't get a lot of laughs.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            International capitalism

                                            Cuba has a higher standard of living than any comparable third-world Caribbean nation, despite the handicap of a trade blockade from its biggest neighbour, with higher literacy levels and better access to free medicine than the USA. You couldn't have chosen a worse example.
                                            that must be the reason why yankees are using their wooden rafts to reach Cuba.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              International capitalism

                                              Grass is always greener.

                                              Interview them six months later when they're homeless in Miami, or washing geriatrics' arses on minimum wage.

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                                                #24
                                                International capitalism

                                                fair enough but really all of them? they can always come back, can they?

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                                                  #25
                                                  International capitalism

                                                  To me it's pretty simple.

                                                  The economy, and society in general, perhaps, is like a big game. Like all games - hockey, motoracing, chess, football - it has to have rules. The rules are there to create incentives and disincentives for the players to behave in certain ways. Sometimes the rules create unintended incentives or disincentives, so we need to study them and adjust accordingly.

                                                  What the rules "ought" to be depends on what sort of behavior we, collectively, decide we want to reward and what sort of behavior we want to discourage.

                                                  But there are almost always trade offs.

                                                  The "problem" with Cuba and North Korea isn't that they're socialist, but that they're dictatorships.

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