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    #51
    The US HOR are big girls

    GY is much smarter than me on this, so I'm glad he's here.
    It's not a question of being smart. It's just that I write about this stuff for a living.

    Does this mean that the US government is going to actually own all of those houses?
    Kinda sorta. Technically, the US will own a beneficial interest in a trust which has security over the houses. To the extent that the US owns all the beneficial interests in a given trust, it will effectively own the houses. One of the problems with the plan is that there's no guarantee that the government will be able to buy up all of (or a controlling interest in) the beneficial interests, which will limit its ability to engage in foreclosure reduction and loan modifications and so on.

    I too have wondered how Warren Buffet and others can say that the US government can make money on this deal if what they're buying are defaulted mortgages.
    For the most part, the US government won't be buying defaulted mortgages (although as I understand there's nothing in the bill to stop them from doing so, and they could still make money if they bought them at the right price).

    What the US will (mostly) be buying are mortgage backed securities, which as I said above represent beneficial interests in a trust with security over a pool of mortgages. What this basically means is that they will have the right to some of the cashflows from that pool of mortgages (ie payments of principal and interest), according to the terms of the notes and their position in the capital structure. If the position is a senior one (and by value the vast majority of the straight mortgage debt is senior, although the inclusion of CDOs complicates things enormously), then any losses on the underlying pool from defaults will be absorbed first by notes lower in the capital structure (this is called subordination or more generically credit enhancement). As a greatly simplified example, if you have a £100m pool of mortgages and a £90m senior bond, the pool can endure £10m of cumulative losses from defaulted loans (which will likely require mortgages with a nominal value of much more than £10m to default, given that you will recover something - 50% is the current estimate - from foreclosure) before the senior bond takes any loss at all. Now clearly there is some risk of loss for the senior bond (in practice because the senior tranches were often more than 90% and because cumulative losses are predicted to be much higher than 10%), even if it hasn't suffered any yet. Which is (among other reasons such as illiquidity and downgrades) why these bonds are marked at a discount. The question is whether the discount accurately reflects the likely ultimate losses on the bonds or incorporates other factors such as a liquidity premium which an investor like the government can legitimately ignore. That's a very, very tricky question (I just wrote a three page feature on the very subject and barely scratched the surface).

    The (main) problem with the bailout plan is that its many objectives (as envisaged by different proponents) are at cross purposes. You can't recapitalise the banks and maximise taxpayer value at the same time through the pricing mechanism. The more you pay for the bonds, the more capital you provide to the banks, but the more risk there is for the taxpayer. Similarly, if you want to reduce foreclosures, you'd be better off buying the loans themselves out of the mortgage trusts rather than buying securities, but the only way you could do that without abrogating contracts would be to buy them at their face value, which would clearly cause massive losses for the taxpayer.

    Personally, I think we'd be better off with a series of smaller, targeted programmes. An asset purchase scheme to clean up bank balance sheets and improve interbank liquidity. A recapitalisation scheme with the government taking equity stakes to shore up weaker banks. A loan modification or refinancing programme to reduce foreclosures in severely affected communities. But I'm not an economist, so I don't know how necessary they really are. It's clear that the bill as proposed is meant primarily to ward off a collapse of the stock market with all the political consequences that would entail.

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      #52
      The US HOR are big girls

      Thanks for that.

      I believe it's Soros who advocates the government capitalizing the banks by buying stakes in the banks.

      Regardless, I can't recall an issue with such a large gap between what the public seems to understand about it and the complex reality of the situation. Some ridiculous percentage of America still thinks Iraq is to blame for 9/11. How are we, collectively, ever going to understand something as complex as this? The widespread perception over here is that we're going to have to raise taxes or cut spending so we can give $700 billion away to rich people.

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        #53
        The US HOR are big girls

        It looks as if Germany has followed Ireland's lead and "guaranteed all deposits", though it isn't completely clear that Merkel had a real plan in mind when she said that (in response to the apparent failure of the Euro 35 billion "rescue" of Hypo Real Estate).

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          #54
          The US HOR are big girls

          Houses in Germany look very cheap.

          But Germany is a toilet. (says Dylan Moran)

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            #55
            The US HOR are big girls

            Britain's in a bit of a bind now. We're basically going to be forced to follow suit, because being the only country not to guarantee deposits is a sure way to lose those deposits. But we're not going to get the benefits of doing so preemptively like the Irish, as we've already had to nationalise two banks and sanction hugely anticompetitive mergers.

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              #56
              The US HOR are big girls

              Reed of the Valley People wrote:
              The widespread perception over here is that we're going to have to raise taxes or cut spending so we can give $700 billion away to rich people.
              That is unfortunate, it's true.

              What's clearly rankling in the US right now is that people are lookingfor scapegoats, and no one's providing them with one. A few CEOs being forced into homelessness as a result of bankruptices and bailouts would do the national mood a world of good. Of course, since so much ofthe country was in on the whole something-for-nothing deal, there is way too much blame to go around...

              Reed, even if they do get the $700 bn back, the bailout still will affect short-term spending. That money has an opportunity cost. There is a point at which an increasing amount of debt means that the rates at which the US Government can borrow will start to rise fairly sharply. I understand there is already some concern in the financial sector about the risk of the US defaulting on its obligations, so...

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                #57
                The US HOR are big girls

                Yeah, there was an Irish senator going on about how, thanks to the bank guarantee, it now costs Ireland more to borrow money than it does Italy.

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                  #58
                  The US HOR are big girls

                  There is a point at which an increasing amount of debt means that the rates at which the US Government can borrow will start to rise fairly sharply. I understand there is already some concern in the financial sector about the risk of the US defaulting on its obligations, so...
                  In principle, yes, but this is one occasion where being the world's reserve currency really works in one's favour. Everyone is piling into Treasuries to get maximimum liquidity and minimum risk, so the interest rates the US is paying are actually going down. The yield on short term Treasuries is tiny at the moment (it even went negative at one point).

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